Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT's.

[kevineduguay1]

Please re-read my post above about the ammo issue.

[Fabfire]

JaM said:
I found something strange. Im trying to find better accuracy ratings for guns, but during my tests i found that Firecontrol rating do only a minor bonus to accuracy.During my tests i tryed gun with acc 20, rangefinder 30 and firecontrol 0. i had accuracy at 2000m (target size 4) 64%. When i rised FC at 20,it rised accuracy to 70%, FC 40 made up to 76%. So only +6% at 2000m with 20 point Fire Control.Isnt it too low?

Yep. Way too low. I also did tests modifying the FC and RF values, and was most disappointed with the results. It seems to make that always repeated motto "It's not only the accuracy value, it's the way the accuracy interacts with FC and RF that matters", or "it is more complicated than that" (just altering the accuracy values) incoherent. Since we don't have access to how each of those variables (ACC, FC, and RF) really interact with each other, or better, since nobody tells us what is the actual formula for defining the hit probability - seems it is classified information - all we can do is what we are doing now - making empirical tests on each variable.

Well, all this said and done, it seems to me that the FC should play a much more important role in the model. That is possible, either by changing the game's code and leaving the OOBS settings alone; or by raising the FC settings on the OOBS dramatically.

However, things being as they are right now, the main variable is the ACC (seems it doesn't have that name for nothing), and that is where all the tweaking should be done.

So, until the so expected patch is released, or until Andy and/or Don clarify how the game actually works as far as tank main gun hit probability is concerned and prove that the ACC interaction with FC and RF really have a significant effect, the best (and most direct and effective) way we have is simply to up the ACC values until we achieve something that is coherent with the actual performance of those guns.

Just my two cents...

Fab

[Mobhack]

JaM said:
I found something strange. Im trying to find better accuracy ratings for guns, but during my tests i found that Firecontrol rating do only a minor bonus to accuracy.During my tests i tryed gun with acc 20, rangefinder 30 and firecontrol 0. i had accuracy at 2000m (target size 4) 64%. When i rised FC at 20,it rised accuracy to 70%, FC 40 made up to 76%. So only +6% at 2000m with 20 point Fire Control.Isnt it too low?

As noted in the mobhack help - FC is mainly to do with accuracy against moving targets. It adds a little effect similar to RF as well.

If your targets were not moving, then you will not expect to notice much FC effect..

Andy

[Mobhack]

Some figures (range figures, so well above combat ones)

Source: Isby "Weapons And Tactics of the Soviet Army" (1981)

T-62 static shooter vs M60A1 sized target, US Army Range Test results
@ 500/1000/1500/2000/2500/3000 metres
BR-5 APFSDS, Stadia RF, 1st shot 98/79/50/27/14/8
BR-5 APFSDS, Stadia RF, 1st shot 94/75/33/19/8/nil(moving target)
BR-5 APFSDS, Stadia RF, 2nd shot 98/94/66/51/40/32
BR-5 APFSDS, laser RF, 1st shot 98/86/60/43/20/10
BK-4M HEAT, Stadia RF, 1st shot 89/69/33/11/3/3
BK-4M HEAT, Stadia RF, 1st shot 75/30/5/nil/nil/nil (moving target)

BR-5 APFSDS penetration (mm at 0 degrees)
350/300/285/270/245/215 (71% kill probability om M60A1 if penetrated)

BK-4M HEAT - 432mm at any range, Pk is 75% if penetrated (M60A1)


T-72
unspecified APFSDS, Laser RF, 1st shot 98/94/70-80/50-60/40+/35+

Penetration figure - like the to-hit - is an estimate and is ignored.

T-55

D-10 gun
BR-412 APC 90/50/33/8/4/nil
BK-5M HEAT 84/43/25/2/nil/nil

Sight unspecified, as was target. I assume 1st shot both stationary with Stadia
and reference target M60A1 as USA range test.

Text notes "Soviet textbook estimates of the 100mm gun's accuracy are much higher. Theoretically, a gun using a BR412 APHE (the book changes classification on the shell here round against a halted enemy tank 2.7m high and 3.6m long should have a 77% chance of hitting its target at 1800m range.

the text also notes "Actual accuracy would doubtless be much less in combat conditions" - which one can apply to all the above range test results as well.

100mm D-10 armour piercing values: (500/1000/1500/2000)
BR-412 APC 155/135/117/100
BM-6 HEAT 380 (any range)
BR-412B APC -/171/-/146
BR-412D APC -/175/-/156

Pk "The probability of killing an M60 tank with a 100mm shell is aboutr 50%, though this depends heavily on whee the target tank is hit"


Pt-76
50/100/175/250/500/750/1000/1500/2000/2500
BR-354 APCR 97/89/89/89/86/83/68/39/17/0
HEAT 97/83/83/83/83/75/61/33/3/0


M60A1 equivalent figures against Soviet Tanks:

AP values (500/1000/1500/2000/2500/3000)
105mm APDS 300/275/200/225/200/175 Pk 54%
105mm HEAT 425mm pk 75%
TOW 500mm pk 90%
Dragon 300mm Pk 80%
LAW 325mm Pk 33%


Ph (@ 50/250/500/1000/1500/2000/2500/2500/3000/3750), stationary vs stationary target, 1st round
105mm APDS 97/94/94/86/61/44/25/8/1-2
105mm HEAT 97/92/89/69/50/28/17/3/nil
105mm HEP (they mean HESH) 97/92/89/56/47/28/17/3/nil
TOW nil/75/90/90/90/90/90/90/90
Dragon nil/73/90/90/nil..
M72A2 97/17/nil

Also in the book:

A Belgian M48 tank using different types of rangefinder with its 90mm gun:
(Stationary tank vs stationary 2.3m square target)
500/1000/2000
Laser 98/86/34
Sterio Coincidence 97/70/14
Stadia reticle 98/34.5/4

[JaM]

I found those:
1000/1500/2000
105mm M68 with M735 98/87/74 (M60A3 in 1980)
105mm M68 with M111 95/81/67 (Merkava mk1 during Lebanon fighting)
120mm M256 with M827 98/84/70 (M1A1 during tests in 1985)
125mm 2A46 with APFSDS 87/66/46 (T-72 with laser rangefinder in 1980)
115mm 2A20 with BR5 86/60/43 (T-62 with laser RF 1980)

120mm M256 with M829A1 80% at 2500m stacionary,75% at 2000m moving

I posted some data from Slovak military buletin where T-72 had accuracy 57% at 2000m with 2A46 firing BM-15 round

[JaM]

M827 was new round with accuracy problems, Merkava 1 stats are fighting results, so they cant be compared with one from training ground.

[Alpha]

Hi Fabio,

i sent you a mail with my OOB set.

[Fabfire]

Hi, Alpha!

I've just got it. Going to take a look at it and will post it ASAP.
Thank you so much!

Best,

Fab

[Fabfire]

Alpha said:
Hi Fabio,

i sent you a mail with my OOB set.

Great worK!

Already posted: The Armosite's WinSPMBT page!

Fab

[Gooseman2448]

Don,

Let me be the first to appologise for my remarks in earlier post.

I did not mean to disrespect you or WinSPMBT. I also did not expect to be belittled by you for expressing my opinion.

What you need to do is play more and gain some experience on how these things are handled. They are quite capabale of being destroyed without having to take massive losses. I would also suggest you avoid the Marines campaign until you have played awhile otherwise the spider holes will be a serious "problem" for you ( as they can be for many people ) However, I know they are all " defeatable " with proper tactics and a bit of game experience

Don

Things got out of hand and I apologise.

I have had a chance to replay the senario that was giving me my problems. I was able to get thte same problems but I have gotten them in a different situation.

I am attaching a save of where I am now.

I would appreciate anyones analysis of what is happening.

The first is of course the earthen bunker that is in question. I have over a platoon of M1A1+ around it at various ranges. I have reduced all suppression and moved to the next turn.

I can kill now within 50 meters. If I try any further out, say 100 meters or more, the ACC % drops to nothing. Even TOW missile aren't able to get a hit, not a kill but a hit.

I have Brads in close to another bunker but they don't seem to be able to do much either.

Another question I have is the M1s in the upper area engaged with a 23mm AA emplacement. I am thinking they should at least be able to suppress it if not hit it.

I never meant to disrespect you or SPMBT. I have enjoyed everything you guys have done. I mentioned WAW before in a bad attempt to explain that to have to close within 50 meters AND stop until the next turn to hit a bunker seemed more along the lines of WW2 technology or tactics.

I think before I had engaged further out (About 300 to 400 meters). By time I had gotten to within 50 meters I was frustrated in I thought an M1 should have atleast hit this thing by now. Am I wrong in thinking this?

With this senario there are no shortages of 120mm, 25mm and TOW missiles, so someone should be able to hit the thing and if lucky kill it.

As I said before I apologise to you Don.