Proportions 2.1 available

[PvK]

quote:

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Originally posted by Iskander:
[QB]>> If there are players still running pre-2.0 games who are eager to get 1.6 (since they can't upgrade to 2.x), let me know.
>>

Thanks for this mod, I tried it for the first time tonight, it does just about everything I thought needed changing from the standard.
Love the change to the engines, nifty...

Now for my question, I'm playing proportions from the CD, from the above quote I'm thinking I need to install something befor proportions 2.1. Is this correct? If so, what do I need?
[QB]

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Glad you're liking it. You can install 2.1 over the Version from the CD. The only problem will be if you have been playing a game of Proportions from a Version before Proportions 2.0, and you want to continue playing that same game. In that case, you will want to load a Proportions patch earlier than 2.0 (I'd recommend 1.5.3). If someone is trying to continue an old game, but wants to be as up to date as possible, I'm willing to make a patch to Version 1.6, which will be compatible with games created using Proportions Versions before 2.0. So far no one's asked for this though, so I haven't taken the time.

PvK

[PvK]

quote:

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Originally posted by PDF:
Hmm, I tried this mod, the ideas sound great, but have problems with the AI/Empires : only a couple of "player" races with AI are in the mod, and of I try to add "stock" races I have a "load error" message, perhaps due to change in traits lists ...
How can I play solo ? Only with created or random AI ??
Or perhaps do some other races sets exist that are compatible ??

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You can do as Oleg says, if you want to be able to pick which AI opponents you use, or to use a pre-made empire other than the one example.

Otherwise, you can create your own race, and let the AI generate its own based on the default set - it will create empires for those and play them with AI for Proportions (though I'm still working on making it do a very good job).

If you are trying to use 3rd party races for AI opponents, the AI files that come with them will generate warnings in Proportions. You can remove their AI files, or copy ones from Proportions into their Proportions/pictures/races/empireName folder folder and rename them to that empire's name, and then they will work in Proportions.

Hopefully by next weekend there will be a Proportions 2.2 with some better AI's. If I have time, I'll generate some more emp files to make it easier to select specific ones.

PvK

[Iskander]

Thanks for the info guys, am looking forward to giving it a try as soon as I find the proportions website.

Have a few modding questions too, but I'll throw them up elsewhere...

About Proportions though, I like the idea of the cities etc, but I'm not sure if they 'work'..
They're rather expensive for what they do, and the systemwide abilities are annoying everytime you get the error message. (might be fixed in 2.1?)
I recon make them a bit cheaper and remove the systemwide abilities.
But then maybe I just need to get used to them.

Isk...

[PvK]

http://www.latibulum.com/pvk/proportions/

There's no way to get rid of the system-wide warnings without removing them. They represent the benefits of having vestiges of an actual civilization in a system. A system without anything but military and industrial facilities is going to have certain disadvantages, represented by missing out on bonuses to happiness, research, etc.

I will probably be adding some more intermediate steps to the urban facilities, and might end up re-naming some of them, and making a couple of tweaks, but basically the idea is to make it take a lot of time, effort, and expense to develop a major colony. Considering cities (representing more than just "a town") can be established in a couple of years with enough work, it seems more or less what I was shooting for.

Although, another thing it helps to realize is that much of my reduction to the Ratings of facilities is an attempt to reject the simple additive logic of SE4. Adding a lab on a remote planet isn't going to really directly add to the research speed of the whole empire directly, the way the game logic works. Similarly, adding a mine in a distant colony is not going to magically provide those resources to an empire - there is a lot of redundancy and expense before the empire will see any net gain, realistically, and practically in this mod.

PvK

[Iskander]

Thanks for the link...

I can see where you're coming from, I'll upgrade to 2.1 and play a few more games and it will fall into place for me..

It's (proportions) has definately given the game a much better pace...

And I love the way you end up with a whole fleet of Qantas Spaceliners shipping people round..

In fact I'd kill for a Spaceliner graphic done in qantas colours.

Isk...

[oleg]

Something about cultural facilities warnings:
Almost all of them "change system-wide happiness" entry which is set to zero. It is quite annoying since one still must build urban pacification centers even if there are Megapolysis around and you get this message "there is already facility with this ability". I am not sure, but it may also interfere with AI facility building. PvK, can you remove these empty lines from low-level cultural facilities or alternatively assign value 1 to them ?

[PvK]

quote:

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Originally posted by oleg:
Something about cultural facilities warnings:
Almost all of them "change system-wide happiness" entry which is set to zero. It is quite annoying since one still must build urban pacification centers even if there are Megapolysis around and you get this message "there is already facility with this ability". I am not sure, but it may also interfere with AI facility building. PvK, can you remove these empty lines from low-level cultural facilities or alternatively assign value 1 to them ?

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Oh, I didn't realize that was the situation - yes, I'll look into that for 2.2.

PvK

[Phoenix-D]

PvK, I'm looking into using this for the Starfire Civil War RP scenerio.

There's a couple of things I'm not sure on tho..(on 2.1)

-What's up with the combat sensors? Aside from space, why would you bother to get the smaller Versions? They don't stack, and you loose a significant amount of sensor bonus by using them. Worse, they are AFTER the other sensors in the tree, and the same family; that means if I want the better sensors I have to undo "only latest" and scroll all the way back. Ick..

-why does the resupply depot have a "emergancy resupply" ability?

Phoenix-D

[PvK]

Combat Sensors and ECM - the small Versions save space and are also rather cheaper than the highest rated ones. The higher tech large ones get more expensive, while the smaller ones get less expensive. Originally they were all listed separately, but this made their abilities stack, which was not intended, so I had to take that out. If you are still playing with standard set philosophy, and always building the most expensive ships, then you will probably want to go with the larger ones, and yes it'll be a bit more work at higher tech levels to select them in the design screen. I don't know of a good way around that without removing the smaller ones.

The smaller and cheaper ones are particularly good for ships that aren't designed as superiority battlewagons, or that just want to be more efficient. Particularly on smaller ships and drones, full-size sensors and ECM cost a lot and take a signifigant amount of space - the smaller and cheaper models then become an attractive choice, especially because in Proportions, these design sizes already have built-in combat mods that more than make up the difference.

Perhaps the full-size ones should actually increase in cost (and/or size) at a steeper rate, to make the choice more distinct. For large expensive direct-fire ships, the choice is pretty clear to go with the larger Versions.

Take a look at the table HERE and let me know if you think it needs tweaking. Note that for example, with Sensors at tech level 10, CS VIIa is available, giving only +40 to hit instead of +49, but costing only 250 mins and 5 kT space, compared to 525 mins and 10 kT space.

I'm thinking maybe I should add more to the increased min cost of higher-level sensors and ECM. As in, maybe have them go up by 50 mins per level instead of by 25, and have them start increasing at level IV instead of level VI, and have them start getting bigger, like maybe +1 kT per level above III.

Note too that these techs still cost about the same to research as in the standard game, which only goes to level III, whereas Proportions goes up to level XV in each, and unless you're playing with multiple homeworlds, Proportions generally gives you a lot less research points after the early game. So... these issues mainly apply to players who dump lots of research into electronic warfare and play for a long time anyway, but still.

As for resupply depots having "emergency resupply," this doesn't appear during play. It's a tag so that the AI can be programmed to work properly with the mod. By telling the AI to build facilities that formally have "emergency resupply," they will build resupply depots instead of deciding that Cultural Centers look like the best kind of resupply depot, and then spending the next 2000 turns dumping resources into a colony that ends up producing nothing. There are quite a few meaningless tags you'll see if you study the data files, pretty much all tricks to get the AI to work properly.

PvK

[Phoenix-D]

"I don't know of a good way around that without removing the smaller ones."

Put something else in between. It seperates them in the listing, but IIRC it won't make the abilities stack.

Re: the resupply depot: ah. I was just a little confused as to why my homeworld had a "use facility" button

Phoenix-D