Getting AAA to fire

[chuckfourth]

Hi
Actually flak is modelled incorrectly in the game,
in that
In reality a flak gun can fire at as many planes as present themselves to it.
In the game however by putting a lot of planes in one strike you swarm the flak defences.
So the solution is that if the flak hasnt been used against a ground target or maybe moved as well, it should suffer no restriction to the number of shots it can fire at passing planes.
The assumption being that the planes are attacking in single "file" or "individually", close enough to the truth, typhoons I believe attacked in pairs maybe.
Thats real flak not stuff on tank roofs.
Best Regards Chuck.

[RERomine]

The overall objective was to get a clear idea on how effective we can expect AAA to be in the game. It was brought up that some guns don't fire at all when there are viable targets within effective range. In my tests, I tried to control certain factors to give the guns optimum firing conditions, i.e. clear ground and high visibility. My tests confirmed that there are situations where guns won't engage targets in range. The significant impact of gun crew experience on their willingness to engage has at least convinced me that in campaigns, AAA units should be in the core.

Chuck, as far as the AA model, all I can say is it is what it is. My objective was not to validate the model, but to understand what we can expect out of it. Guns frequently not firing at targets was a surprise. Now I know what to expect. Was it realistic? I don't know One would like to think every gun would shoot at the appropriate target if one presented itself, but I'm sure there were instances were guns failed, for whatever reason.

Bob, in looking around for information on AAA gun effectiveness, I came across references to rounds self destructing at a certain point. Apparently, some AAA rounds were designed to explode when the tracer burned out, thus creating an artificial maximum range. If I understand the purpose of this correctly, it was to keep HE rounds from dropping back into friendly positions. Larger rounds burst at high altitude using a barometric fuse, so there is a different intent than with the rounds self destructing at tracer burn out.

[DRG]

AA guns will not fire at targets if the game determines there is no chance of a hit and crew experience does factor into that as does the size and speed of the target. Andy pointed that out right away. If we allowed them to bang away up to their maximum range huge quantities of ammo would be wasted with zero chance of having any affect then we'd get complaints AA cannot hit anything when they fire

As for Chucks assertion that any AA gun should be able to fire at any aircraft regardless of how many others they have fired at consider if that "logic" was applied to any other unit in the game. Should an AT gun be able to fire at every tank that appears ? Putting a large quantity of tanks in the field also "swarms" the defences. The reason aircraft enter the map one at a time is becasue that's the way the game is set up to work but , like AT guns there are only so many targets a gun crew can engage in one "turn" and that's reflected in the number of shots it's given.

When this thread started were given very little real info. All AA guns are not the same in the game and "my AAA will not fire at a/c" when both Andy and I KNOW that AA guns WILL fire at AC ( and as "PanzerBob" pointed out "I've lost more aircraft to those cursed guns than any other" ) so this seemed to indicate that *perhaps* their might be an OOB error involved because each nation uses it's own weapons list and one might be wrong but we cannot possibly know that without information . The only way to know for sure is to get solid information as to nation, year, unit number if possible so that can be checked but also, ****ALWAYS****, a save game demonstrating the problem goes a long way to answering all those questions that crop up and reduce everyones frustration level

Don

[Weasel]

Originally Posted by DRG

When this thread started were given very little real info. All AA guns are not the same in the game and "my AAA will not fire at a/c" when both Andy and I KNOW that AA guns WILL fire at AC ( and as "PanzerBob" pointed out "I've lost more aircraft to those cursed guns than any other" ) so this seemed to indicate that *perhaps* their might be an OOB error involved because each nation uses it's own weapons list and one might be wrong but we cannot possibly know that without information . The only way to know for sure is to get solid information as to nation, year, unit number if possible so that can be checked but also, ****ALWAYS****, a save game demonstrating the problem goes a long way to answering all those questions that crop up and reduce everyones frustration level

Don

That is because when this thread started I asked how the AAA routine (game code) works, not why doesn't X unit shoot when Y unit does. Whether the unit was bofors, a quad 20mm, or a bow and arrow didn't matter, I was asking how the game code/routine works. Several people understood what I was asking, others did not. As for AAA only firing when they think they can hit something; why the heck were the skies in Germany, and at Okinawa covered in flak, they all can't be counting on sure hits.

And with that I am out of here.

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

Originally Posted by Weasel

That is because when this thread started I asked how the AAA routine (game code) works, not why doesn't X unit shoot when Y unit does. Whether the unit was bofors, a quad 20mm, or a bow and arrow didn't matter, I was asking how the game code/routine works. Several people understood what I was asking, others did not. As for AAA only firing when they think they can hit something; why the heck were the skies in Germany, and at Okinawa covered in flak, they all can't be counting on sure hits.

And with that I am out of here.

if you're not happy, why do you play the game anyway?

[PanzerBob]

Good Weasel,

IMHO you still managed to inspire some good discussion on AAA. I think you missed the answer to your question, which was it really depends on many factors as to how the game handles AAA.

Bob out

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Weasel

As for AAA only firing when they think they can hit something; why the heck were the skies in Germany, and at Okinawa covered in flak, they all can't be counting on sure hits.

1/Because flak gunners in Allied armies were notorious for shooting at anything with wings regardless of range or what nation the pilot of the aircraft was fighting for.

2/ They didn't have an AI in their brain telling them the to hit chance was zero so don't bother firing

We could change the code so that AA fires as soon as a target is within range of the AA gun even though the to hit chance is non existent but in the end it would leave a lot more players unhappy with the routine than are now and we'd hear a constant whining about how AA guns can't hit anything.

Or I supposed we could go Chuckey's way and allow AA to fire unlimited at any target at any range but the end result would be the same as paragraph 2. The difference being air attacks would slow to a crawl as every AA gun fires at maximum range each time the aircraft moves a hex. But then, if we did things the way Chuck wants aircraft would rarely ever hit anything with rockets or bombs so the end result of those bright ideas would be nobody would bother with air attacks because they take forever to resolve and nothing positive happens when they do and we'd get a new round of b*tchinging that air attacks are a waste of time and points.

Don

[RERomine]

Just out of curiosity, do planes that are engaged while making attack runs suffer suppression? If so, does such suppressian cause the aircraft to abort an attack or affect its ability to hit the target? Aside from placing AAA units and setting ranges, the whole air defense routine is under AI control.

[Imp]

Just out of curiosity, do planes that are engaged while making attack runs suffer suppression? If so, does such suppressian cause the aircraft to abort an attack or affect its ability to hit the target? Aside from placing AAA units and setting ranges, the whole air defense routine is under AI control

I think they can cause suppresion but not that frequently in which case assume it does affect the attack. Never had one abort an attack though even if damaged on the way in it still completes its run

[PanzerBob]

Originally Posted by Imp

I think they can cause suppresion but not that frequently in which case assume it does affect the attack. Never had one abort an attack though even if damaged on the way in it still completes its run

If aircraft on the run in get hit or encounter dense AAA it does affect their chances of sighting and hitting targets. Just as terrain, smoke and fire can really effect your targeting and results. As far as an actual abort goes, I don't recall this happening per say.

Bob out