what about the future?

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Tim Brooks

It is really interesting how sales in a niche market seem to work for us. Our best results are with sales of 10-15%. This brings in enough unit sales to make up for the lost revenue from the discount. Not enough to make more money (more units, same income). What doesn't work is large sales say 20% or more. You sell more units, but not enough to make up for the lost revenue from the discount (more units, less income).

Is this for all games? Or just for Dom3?

[Squirrelloid]

FWIW: http://www.next-gen.biz/features/val...-too-expensive

"Discounting games does not only increase unit sales--it increases actual revenues. During the 16-day sale window over the holidays, third-parties were given a choice as to how severely they would discount their games. Those that discounted their games by 10 percent saw a 35% uptick in sales--that's dollars, not units. A 25 percent discount meant a 245 percent increase in sales. Dropping the price by 50 percent meant a sales increase of 320 percent. And a 75 percent decrease in the price point generated a 1,470 percent increase in sales."

Of course, it helps if people actually know you exist, (ie, Steam has a much higher profile than Shrapnel) - that's where advertising comes in.

[Tim Brooks]

Is this for all games? Or just for Dom3?

Pretty much across the board.

[Tim Brooks]

Discounting games does not only increase unit sales--it increases actual revenues.

I know that article. It is from Valve. Be careful wth broad statements like that. The game they talk about had increased sales, but it came with an announcement of upcoming additional content. That alone would have increased sales. We announce a patch and our sales jump by those kind of percentages.

Also, these games were featured on their front page. What they don't say is that any game on their front page does great. That when it drops from the front page, its sales are much, much weaker.

So was it the sale, the announcement of upgrade, or the front page?

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

If the niche is that big, why do board game stores have such a hard time staying profitable? Why do almost all the large RPG/boardgame publishers go bankrupt or get taken over by a the giants? Why is it so hard for normal boardgames to stay in production?

Sure you can get The Settlers of Catan everywhere. But that is simple low strategy board game. Now try to buy Shogun/Samurai Swords somewhere. Big strategy board games get out of print often. Why? Because eventually the market is saturated. The avid war/boardgamers all have a copy. And the group of these is rather small so it doesn't really pay off to keep copies laying around for the small amount of sales you get. While Settlers still sells regular. Why? Because difficult board games are a niche, and settlers has a broad appeal.

Here's the thing you're neglecting - the lifespan of a game. One title cannot stay in print forever, you're right. And it shouldn't. Publishers need to release a steady stream of titles in order to stay in business. And this is even more true for computer games where changing technology obsoletes old games. (Don't get me wrong, I still love playing games from the 90s, but i probably won't even be able to run them after my next (imminent) hardware upgrade.)

A computer game's lifespan is 5 years at the most. Only the most exceptional games hit 10+ (eg, Starcraft). So when you start off by asking questions like 'Why is it so hard for normal boardgames to stay in production' or 'why do RPG companies go out of business', you're asking entirely the wrong questions. You need to keep producing new products that will bring back older customers as well as be accessible to new customers. This explains why Magic the Gathering is still going strong some 17 years after starting. Or why WotC chose the publication structure it did for D+D 4e (every year sees a new set of core books), and why a 5th edition is inevitable.

Dom3 is already past the expected lifetime. It shouldn't be expected to generate any sales at all, especially at full price, and that it does should be regarded as miraculous.

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

FWIW: http://www.next-gen.biz/features/val...-too-expensive

"Discounting games does not only increase unit sales--it increases actual revenues. During the 16-day sale window over the holidays, third-parties were given a choice as to how severely they would discount their games. Those that discounted their games by 10 percent saw a 35% uptick in sales--that's dollars, not units. A 25 percent discount meant a 245 percent increase in sales. Dropping the price by 50 percent meant a sales increase of 320 percent. And a 75 percent decrease in the price point generated a 1,470 percent increase in sales."

Of course, it helps if people actually know you exist, (ie, Steam has a much higher profile than Shrapnel) - that's where advertising comes in.

One of the biggest developers does this and gets LOADS of press, for games that already are hugely popular before. Valve and L4D are huge, both in PR and amount of gamers who like it. (And zombies always sell of course ).

Question is, does the lower price help? Or the fact that it was expensive before and is now on sale?

What works for Valve doesn't have to work for a small developer. You can only do this if your potential consumer base is already large enough. Advertisement is pretty hard you know.

Ps, incoming Jeff Vogel fanboyism
http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/...-big-sale.html
"So the only real moral of the story is that people like sales. Not a shock."

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/...more-pt-2.html
""If You Charged Less, You Would Sell More Copies"

This is true. The problem is that I won't sell enough more to justify the lower prices.

Microeconomics tells us that as we charge less, we sell more, but we make less per sale. At some point, there is a best price, a point where (number of sales) * (profit per sale) is at its maximum. The question is, where is it? Based on my experiences shifting prices up and down, I think I'm actually at the sweet spot."

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/...more-pt-1.html
"Now don't get me wrong. Some games (casual quickies, simple puzzle games) should be inexpensive. But everyone (retailers, reviewers, customers) is enabling a mindset where all games, even the niche products and larger, deeper, less casual titles, are expected to be desperately cheap. This is not going to help developers stay in business. This is not how a healthy industry is maintained."

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Tim Brooks

Pretty much across the board.

Interesting. Thanks for the information.

[Gandalf Parker]

Publicity is free (except of course for having a publicist to do it). Dom3 and new Shrapnel games appear in nearly every online gaming magazine or review site almost instantly.

Advertising costs money. Someones money. Usually the publisher. Thats one of the complaints of indies who leave big publishers for smaller ones. The advertising and other fancy features put them in a hole. It can take 1 or 2 years to payback the startup costs and start seeing profit as actual paychecks. Not to mention the so often mentioned "sales bins" that many of the pushers for the Shrapnel going the other way tend to add as something they would wait for. Those are efforts of the distributor and sometimes the publisher to recoup their costs and break even. Often happening before the profit point which means the devs see nothing.

ONE of the apparent advantages of Shrapnel to indy developers is almost instantly splitting sales. Ive seen some of the developers do ads for their own games but generally Im not sure where you would do it for Dom3. If you can think of one, let me know. Id be willing to look into it.
(But Im still holding out for a tshirt concession)

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Here's the thing you're neglecting - the lifespan of a game.

That is true.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

And this is even more true for computer games where changing technology obsoletes old games.

And that is the problem. Dom3 isn't obsolete. There is no replacement.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

So when you start off by asking questions like 'Why is it so hard for normal boardgames to stay in production' or 'why do RPG companies go out of business', you're asking entirely the wrong questions. You need to keep producing new products that will bring back older customers as well as be accessible to new customers.

But a lot of RPG and boardgame publishers did just that, and still went out of business because the niche for boardgames and rpgs was shrinking. Sure the large ones like MtG and WotC survive. But the small ones die, or downsize.

Unrelated, how is dnd 4ed selling?

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

A computer game's lifespan is 5 years at the most.
...
Dom3 is already past the expected lifetime. It shouldn't be expected to generate any sales at all, especially at full price, and that it does should be regarded as miraculous.

Only if there is a better version. Only if there is something new and shiny comparable out. Especially for a certain type of niche. (Starting to really dislike the word niche btw, used it a bit to much).

Otherwise where is nothing in conventional economics saying why prices should drop. Sure there is a method to slowly get the most out of the costumers by gradually dropping the prices, but that only works in certain situations, cant recall which exactly, and to lazy to look it up in my economy books. But supply vs demand doesn't apply in this case, as supply is rather infinite.

Boardgames also don't gradually drop in prices, and when they do, it is because the shops need the shelve space.

The idea that games should drop in prices is because you expect them to do, because it is supposed to be normal. Not because it makes economic sense.

Ps: regarding the lower prices. Never forget that this could be a business ploy. Lower pricing to drive the competition with lesser deep pockets out of business. (I'm paranoid anti-corporate, it is my Shadowrun heritage). Valve playing themselves off as the less greedy friendly corp, while crushing the competition.


---
Edit:
Perhaps there now is a better version, if Elements gets improved.
Edit2:
I think the economics theory is related to different adopters of products. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusi...ter_categories

[Soyweiser]

Gandalf, that is why Indies have created other ways of creating buzz and publicity. Such as blogs etc.

See: http://www.pixelprospector.com/indev...business-tips/