Soviet OOB 11: miscellaneous observations

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

That's a great news
Out of curiosity, which carry capacity is needed to carry guns with 1, 2 or 3 weight?

It has always been crew size + weight.......if crew is 5 and gun weighs 1 then it needs a vehicle with a carry capacity of 6 or more to transport it

...but DO NOT even THINK about producing a list of " corrections" for this..... I'm NOT interested. All we did this for was to make it easier on players looking to find a vehicle that could transport a gun without the " surprise" on deployment that the vehicle chosen cannot tow the gun..... that will no longer be an issue but I am NOT going to start adjusting carry caps and weight to existing guns and vehicles.... whats there now is what it stays.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

That's all as for now.
...I can't promise if there will be further research, I'm tired as well

BELIEVE ME............It is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to be more "tired" of this constant nit picking than I am.....

[Griefbringer]

At the risk of being considered as a nit-picker, I would also like to take the opportunity to add in a few comments about various units and formations:

a.) Unit 358 (T-26TU M1932) is armed with a long-barrelled 37 mm gun, with an ammo load of 160 HE rounds, 62 sabot rounds and 0 AP rounds. I presume that this is an accidental carry-over from unit 176 (T-26TU M1931), which is armed with a short-barreled 37 mm gun. Thus, maybe the sabot rounds (or at least most of them) on unit 358 should be replaced with regular AP ammo.

b.) Units 170, 171 (both MS-1/T-18), 176 (T-26TU M1931) and 364 (BA-27) are armed with weapon 12 (37 mm PP pbr. 15R), with range 64 (representing an infantry gun used for indirect fire). However, the actual armament for these vehicles apparently was a local variant of the French 37 mm Puteaux gun - a weapon which in other OOBs has a range of 35 hexes but is missing from the Soviet OOB. I would suggest adding such a weapon entry to the OOB and re-arming the mentioned vehicles with this weapon.

c.) Units 009 and 528 (both M3L) are currently class 12 (light tank) while other lend-lease tanks in this OOB are of class 120 (lend-lease tank), including other light lend-lease tanks.

d.) Unit 374 (107 mm Mort Sect) is currently class 5 (mortar). Considering the size of this weapon, maybe class 152 (heavy mortar) would be more appropriate.

e.) Unit 274 (Para Mortar) is armed with weapon 217 (82 mm para mortar), with a range of 20 hexes. As far as I am aware, the Soviet military did not develop any paratrooper variants of their mortars in the timescope of this game, with the airborne forces employing same mortars as regular infantry. Thus I would suggest re-arming this unit with regular 82 mm mortars instead. (For those interested in organisational information, for most of the war airborne battalions seem to have included a mortar company armed with six 82 mm mortars.)

f.) Speaking of airborne units and mortars, airborne rifle companies historically had a tiny mortar platoon of three 50 mm mortars, operated by a handful of men. Such armament unfortunately seems to be missing from the para companies currently present in game (at least formations 008, 054, 161 and 168). Instead, these have a MG section that seems not to have been part of the historical airborne rifle company organisation, with the airborne units concentrating all of their MGs in a battalion level MG platoon/company. Thus, I would suggest replacing the MG section in the mentioned formations with a new para support section (armed with rifles, three 50 mm mortars and a crew somewhere between 9 and 12 men).

g.) Glider formations 140 and 142 become available only at 1/43, while the G-11 glider (unit 200) that is used in these formations becomes available 1/42 (and there are no other units than gliders in these two formations).

[Griefbringer]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

100 ZSU-37-1 - designation was just ZSU-37 according to books.
(BTW: it carried 320 rounds of ammo - now it has 35+5. I see, that other 37-40mm SP flaks have similar ammo, but isn't it too little?..)

Keep in mind that the light AA-guns in the game (as well as historically) fired bursts rather than single rounds. This is represented in game with a limited ammo load and high HE kill rating.

For example the 37 mm AA-gun in this example has a HE kill rating of 11 per burst, while a 37 mm gun firing individual rounds would have a HE kill rating of 1. Taking this into account, I think the ammo load in the game sounds quite reasonable.

[DRG]

That is correct. The shots represents bursts of fire for weapons like that in both games and has for now going on 2 decades.

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Griefbringer

At the risk of being considered as a nit-picker, I would also like to take the opportunity to add in a few comments about various units and formations:

a.) Unit 358 (T-26TU M1932) is armed with a long-barrelled 37 mm gun, with an ammo load of 160 HE rounds, 62 sabot rounds and 0 AP rounds. I presume that this is an accidental carry-over from unit 176 (T-26TU M1931), which is armed with a short-barreled 37 mm gun. Thus, maybe the sabot rounds (or at least most of them) on unit 358 should be replaced with regular AP ammo.

b.) Units 170, 171 (both MS-1/T-18), 176 (T-26TU M1931) and 364 (BA-27) are armed with weapon 12 (37 mm PP pbr. 15R), with range 64 (representing an infantry gun used for indirect fire). However, the actual armament for these vehicles apparently was a local variant of the French 37 mm Puteaux gun - a weapon which in other OOBs has a range of 35 hexes but is missing from the Soviet OOB. I would suggest adding such a weapon entry to the OOB and re-arming the mentioned vehicles with this weapon.

c.) Units 009 and 528 (both M3L) are currently class 12 (light tank) while other lend-lease tanks in this OOB are of class 120 (lend-lease tank), including other light lend-lease tanks.

d.) Unit 374 (107 mm Mort Sect) is currently class 5 (mortar). Considering the size of this weapon, maybe class 152 (heavy mortar) would be more appropriate.

e.) Unit 274 (Para Mortar) is armed with weapon 217 (82 mm para mortar), with a range of 20 hexes. As far as I am aware, the Soviet military did not develop any paratrooper variants of their mortars in the timescope of this game, with the airborne forces employing same mortars as regular infantry. Thus I would suggest re-arming this unit with regular 82 mm mortars instead. (For those interested in organisational information, for most of the war airborne battalions seem to have included a mortar company armed with six 82 mm mortars.)

f.) Speaking of airborne units and mortars, airborne rifle companies historically had a tiny mortar platoon of three 50 mm mortars, operated by a handful of men. Such armament unfortunately seems to be missing from the para companies currently present in game (at least formations 008, 054, 161 and 168). Instead, these have a MG section that seems not to have been part of the historical airborne rifle company organisation, with the airborne units concentrating all of their MGs in a battalion level MG platoon/company. Thus, I would suggest replacing the MG section in the mentioned formations with a new para support section (armed with rifles, three 50 mm mortars and a crew somewhere between 9 and 12 men).

g.) Glider formations 140 and 142 become available only at 1/43, while the G-11 glider (unit 200) that is used in these formations becomes available 1/42 (and there are no other units than gliders in these two formations).

I do NOT have the time or inclination to get into debates with people about their nit picking ...YES some things may be legitimate errors but it's been going on for 20 years and it's getting old

a/ did you bother to review the "sabot" weapon stats for the weapon Unit 358 uses ?? There is a significant improvement on range and penetration over the one used for unit 176 so I see no reason to change that unit, Unless someone produces proof I can confirm It represents AP ammo that did not have the effective range of it's HE ammo and that is.........( I assume.....am I expected to remember every detail of every unit added to these games ??)..... why it's been set up like that. As stated in the game guide " sabot" can also represent AP ammo that does not have the effective range of it's HE ammo but ..OF COURSE that now opens up a new can-o-worms with any other unit that uses that weapon......and why this is all getting very , very tiresome..... I USED TO enjoy developing these games further but we're both getting worn down. This is a weapon on a vehicle that contributed NOTHING of significance in the half decade it existed in the mid 1930's... how do you define "nit-picking"?? Actual"sabot" ammo did not even exist during this vehicles service life so it's "sabot" is short(er) range AP

c.)...... and that's not " nit-picking" ?? How does it's unitclass affect the game or gameplay ? And if you'd bothered to look you would have found the M3L is ALSO in the OOB as WC120 "lend-lease" so we have allowed it to appear in both the lend least formations AND the regular light tank formations...so why do you think that is a problem for you given it's been like that for AT LEAST a decade and a half ?

e.) Unit 274 (Para Mortar) is set up as an infantry unit for direct fire only which is why it has the reduced range. It is a game design decision that also exists in other OOB's as well

f.) see above. It *may be* that this was intended to represent those 50's.....IDK. I cannot be expected to remember the reason every unit in both games was added and why but I will spend the time to investigate. What I DO know is unit 274 has been set up like that for at least 15 years

That's all I'm going to comment on.....if it changes for next release I either agreed with you or saw no reason to disagree. If it doesn't change don't assume I "overlooked" it

[jivemi]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

Also - if the battery has 200 range then it can drop fires anywhere on the map.

If however the off-map battery had less than 200 range then range is calculated as if they were at -1,-1 resulting in areas of the map that cannot be reached on the larger maps.

All off-map arty therefore should have a 200+ range - an OOB designer who puts say 120mm mortars into an off-map battery with range of 160 is in error. He should have cloned the on-map weapon and given it a 200+ range for the off-map version. (Or not have made off map mortar batteries in the first place).

Other than that the range is only useful in calculating if C/B fire can be done.

OK thanks. So does 200 or more hex range automatically classify artillery as off-map? Reason I ask is 'cuz in a recent Russian long campaign battle the AI opponent put 10.5cm Haubitzen with range of 202 ON the map. Would that make them capable of hitting Russian off-map arty? Thanks.

[DRG]

Only arty in the off map classes can CB....there could be on map pieces that have >200 range but they do not CB

Don

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by DRG

a/ did you bother to review the "sabot" weapon stats for the weapon Unit 358 uses ?? There is a significant improvement on range and penetration over the one used for unit 176 so I see no reason to change that unit, Unless someone produces proof I can confirm It represents AP ammo that did not have the effective range of it's HE ammo and that is.........( I assume.....am I expected to remember every detail of every unit added to these games ??)..... why it's been set up like that. As stated in the game guide " sabot" can also represent AP ammo that does not have the effective range of it's HE ammo but ..OF COURSE that now opens up a new can-o-worms with any other unit that uses that weapon......

Sorry to butt in, but it might be an error indeed, easy to fix. The only other unit to use long-bareel #14 37mm L46 B-3 is #114 BT-2, which has ordinary AP ammo only, and there's no reason why T-26 should have sabot. A performance of "sabot" in this gun is excellent - penetration 7 @20 hexes - better than long US 37mm. Therefore I believe it should be ordinary AP (with average value pen = 5).

BTW: there were few T-26 with B-3 gun - some 20-30 according to Kolomiets. Ordinary gun-armed twin-turret T-26 (#176) was also rarer - some 450 per 1627 twin-turret tanks, what could be reflected in rarity code.

BTW2: L/20 tank gun #12 37mm PP obr.15R is always referred to as "Hotchkiss gun" or "Hotchkiss PS" in Russian sources. Apparently the barrel length was unchanged comparing with the French one, however it got a different recoil mechanism (adapted from not-produced PS-1 gun, which was also supposed to get new barrel and stronger ammo, according to M. Svirin).
It could be renamed, since, as I wrote before, obr.15 Rosenberg infantry gun (a different Russian L/19 design) wasn't used anymore in the 1930s.

[DRG]

I will make the change only because I am sick and tired of arguing about this crap and I am being as polite as I possibly can. As for rarity code..... this is one thing that makes me despair more than ever.....given all the years you have been making comments about this game you have never seemed to learn that rarity code ONLY affects AI purchasing.....it has NOTHING to do with human play or how rare a piece of equipment might be in RL ( not that 450 units is "rare" )NOTHING. and we have explained that many times in the past and it is clearly stated in MOBHack help............. as well that tank 176 is ALREADY set to rare

That is the last OOB " suggestion" I want to hear from ANYONE

Merry F%$#*% Christmas