MA Man in latest CBM

[Calahan]

While the recruit anywhere Wardens and Lord Wardens are a welcome boost for MA Man, I don't think a bless strategy can be based on them. If nothing else than because the moment you have any decent number of Wardens massed, they become a pain to bless with only H1 priests. Main aspect of the Wardens now in CBM 1.6 is that the Lords are recruitable anywhere, as the Lord is a potentially decent thug chassis at a cheap cost (that may be worth a few X4 blesses). But he never got used before due to being cap only. (and so never got recruited ahead of cap mages)

Possibly a bigger boost is the increase to 25% on the second Crone random, as that increases the chance of getting those critical A4's (meaning you won't need an A4 pretender just for Air boosters). Would still like to see it at 50% though

And I second Hoplosternum's call on the Knights of Avalon. I brought this point up a few weeks ago on the IRC. The unit as it stands is pretty much pointless, as it will never really be recruited over the regular Knight. But if given a hoof attack, like most (all?) other heavy cavalry in CBM, then they suddenly become useful.

Hard to think these additional changes would overpower MA Man, since even with the recent CBM 1.6 changes, they still find themselves lurking at the bottom-end of the MA food-chain.


Edit: Just noticed the Knights of Avalon now cost 65 instead of 75 in CBM 1.6. So that increases their chances of being recruited. Still think they should have a hoof attack though

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally Posted by Calahan

While the recruit anywhere Wardens and Lord Wardens are a welcome boost for MA Man,

From a question of efficiency, perhaps, but it really hurts Man as a theme. The entire idea of having the Forest of Avalon, the witches of Avalon (who only become strong with the forest), and the wardens of the witches of Avalon (enchanted and possibly descendents of the Tuatha) straps a huge weight to its back and takes a running leap off the cliff labeled "generic nation that we need to boost" once the wardens are made recruitable everywhere rather than bound to the capital.

A.k.a. while I may understand the reasoning behind making them recruitable everywhere due to their performance in MP, I think it is a crying shame that the balance tweaking was done in such a theme destructive manner.

[quantum_mechani]

Originally Posted by Peter Ebbesen

A.k.a. while I may understand the reasoning behind making them recruitable everywhere due to their performance in MP, I think it is a crying shame that the balance tweaking was done in such a theme destructive manner.

I look at it this way: Mothers of Avalon are recruitable everywhere, and they are supposed to commonly have warden bodyguards. So, it seems like wardens should be at least as common as the mothers.

[Kuritza]

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

I look at it this way: Mothers of Avalon are recruitable everywhere, and they are supposed to commonly have warden bodyguards. So, it seems like wardens should be at least as common as the mothers.

!!!!!

By the way, its true. Since the whole 'witch and her warden' theme was inspired by the Wheel of Time (afaik), wardens should be recruitable wherever Mothers are.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally Posted by Kuritza

By the way, its true. Since the whole 'witch and her warden' theme was inspired by the Wheel of Time (afaik), wardens should be recruitable wherever Mothers are.

You mean the same WoT where warders can be anybody to start with but are very carefully trained at exactly one place in the world, the white tower of Tar Valon*, after they are chosen as warders?

Well, until Rand bloody Al'thor came around and messed up the political scene, that is.

As for Dominions, the MA warders seem to be a good mix of the Tuatha bloodline story continued from EA mixed up with a bit of generic maiden/mother/crone mythology and a bucketful of Randland warders. The Warden of Dominions is what you get out AFTER he's been through the Tower/Forest of Avalon Warden program.

So nice try but no go unless you rewrite or ignore the Warden and witches flavour text.


* showing yet again how the pull of witches = Avalon + general mythology is nearly irresitable to a western fantasy writer as it has very deep roots in our popular cultures. Personally, I blame Sir Thomas Mallory's Le Morte D'Arthur, but realistically Geoffrey of Monmouth is probably the bigger sinner in this regard.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

I look at it this way: Mothers of Avalon are recruitable everywhere, and they are supposed to commonly have warden bodyguards. So, it seems like wardens should be at least as common as the mothers.

I would have to disagree with that line of reasoning with respect to recruitment.

Having aspiring witches start out outside the Forest of Avalon assigned to the local covens and train as they grow older and wiser, traveling the world as mothers of Avalon until finally they reach an age to receive their ultimate training in Avalon itself as crones of Avalon does not in any way imply that their wardens are trained outside Avalon - from a fantasy story point of view it makes excellent sense for the wardens to be trained in just one place (or two - the Tower of Avalon in the Forest of Avalon) by those who are mighty in the arts and then being assigned to the mothers of Avalon traveling the world.

The latter interpretation also happens to fit the warden flavour text considerably better than one where the mothers' "they are often accompanied by wardens sworn to protect them" is interpreted as meaning "you can recruit armies of wardens all over the world".

Ah, well, for probably well over 9 out of 10 users of the CBM the only important thing is the mechanical performance of a nation so it should not be shocking to me that it primarily caters to its intended audience.

[quantum_mechani]

Originally Posted by Peter Ebbesen

Ah, well, for probably well over 9 out of 10 users of the CBM the only important thing is the mechanical performance of a nation so it should not be shocking to me that it primarily caters to its intended audience.

I must I admit it's kind of funny being on the other side of argument, people are constantly trying to convince me to put things in CB I find thematically questionable. It's a major reason most changes are pure price tweaks.

In this case though, for reaspons that have been mentioned, that would not solve the lord warden's problems. Never seeing a unit used I find quite unthematic (and unfun). And that's apart from he fact they never specifically say they are trained in Avalon, and that the Mothers are already everywhere which, really, makes far less sense.

[Fantomen]

I like the change. It doesn´t disturb my sense of immersion and seems thematically acceptable.

[vfb]

Originally Posted by Calahan

While the recruit anywhere Wardens and Lord Wardens are a welcome boost for MA Man, I don't think a bless strategy can be based on them. (snip)

Cleveland did well with a E9N?A2 cyclops in a big MP game (sorry, the name escapes me), not even using CBM. A monk or two with a few Wardens can take on the PD of quite a few nations, and it's free in terms of gems.

[Foodstamp]

Originally Posted by vfb

Cleveland did well with a E9N?A2 cyclops in a big MP game (sorry, the name escapes me), not even using CBM. A monk or two with a few Wardens can take on the PD of quite a few nations, and it's free in terms of gems.

Needs more bard!