Mod: CBM 1.8 released

[thejeff]

I still maintain the fundamental problem with Tartarians is the afflictions. More specifically, that at most two nations can heal the afflictions.

If you price them for those nations, then they're too expensive for everyone else. If you price them for everyone else, those two get hordes of cheap SCs. Removing the afflictions would be the best solution, but I don't think that's possible.

I actually think the GoR change makes it worse. Previously boosting the cost of GoR allowed you to change the cost of only the useful tarts. Whoever had GoR or the Chalice could heal them all and GoR as many as they could afford, but other nations could summon them, but only GoR the non-feebleminded ones, lowering their cost per useful tart.

Now the cost is the same, but without Chalice/GoH you get roughly a quarter as many useful ones.

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by thejeff

I still maintain the fundamental problem with Tartarians is the afflictions. More specifically, that at most two nations can heal the afflictions.

If you price them for those nations, then they're too expensive for everyone else. If you price them for everyone else, those two get hordes of cheap SCs. Removing the afflictions would be the best solution, but I don't think that's possible.

I actually think the GoR change makes it worse. Previously boosting the cost of GoR allowed you to change the cost of only the useful tarts. Whoever had GoR or the Chalice could heal them all and GoR as many as they could afford, but other nations could summon them, but only GoR the non-feebleminded ones, lowering their cost per useful tart.

Now the cost is the same, but without Chalice/GoH you get roughly a quarter as many useful ones.

Good points! Maybe make the chalice a level 6 item but increase the price by *lots*? The tarts could then be balanced around the idea that they will be eventually healed.

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Jarkko

Good points! Maybe make the chalice a level 6 item but increase the price by *lots*? The tarts could then be balanced around the idea that they will be eventually healed.

That would also remove disease as a problem everywhere. Reduce the use of rain of toads disease demon, C'tis dominion, and others. And it would make it easier to tart spam. (As you would need 2 research levels less).

You would fix hole by digging a new one.

I think by reducing the shattered soul 25 to 10 a lot of issues would be solved. And that is moddable.

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

That would also remove disease as a problem everywhere. Reduce the use of rain of toads disease demon, C'tis dominion, and others. And it would make it easier to tart spam. (As you would need 2 research levels less).

Rain of toads is an early/mid game spell, which you do to destroy income (the disease is a slightly benefical side effect). Disease demon doesn't properly work. MA C'tis (together with EA C'tis) is one of the nations hit most hard by tarts being useless now, so if they could spam tarts, so much better for them. With the exception of making tarts spammable, all the other things can already now be fixed with Fairie Queens; in effect making the chalice non-unique would just affect tarts and other undeads compared to the situation now.

But you are right. Fixing by making chalice non-unique would dig up new, even more horrible problems. Then again, I really meant making the price of the chalice *lots* (maybe I should have typed that as *LOTS* to make it more apparent what I meant) more expensive. Like something you would whimper if you had to craft even one, even if your neighbour payed half of the price.

EDIT: thejeff's comment about old age is a valid one. Then again, old age can be circumvented already now.

[WraithLord]

I'm not sure I'm following you.

Originally Posted by thejeff

I still maintain the fundamental problem with Tartarians is the afflictions. More specifically, that at most two nations can heal the afflictions.

Which nations?- AFAIK only GoH and chalice can heal undead.

Originally Posted by thejeff

If you price them for those nations, then they're too expensive for everyone else. If you price them for everyone else, those two get hordes of cheap SCs. Removing the afflictions would be the best solution, but I don't think that's possible.

The afflictions are not that bad. Even feeblemind are comparable and better than say Ettin.

Originally Posted by thejeff

I actually think the GoR change makes it worse. Previously boosting the cost of GoR allowed you to change the cost of only the useful tarts. Whoever had GoR or the Chalice could heal them all and GoR as many as they could afford, but other nations could summon them, but only GoR the non-feebleminded ones, lowering their cost per useful tart.

I disagree. GoR gave you much much more ROI in terms of diversity even w/o chalice. In-fact I made it a habit not to rush for chalice and not squabble over GoH. In two games that I won I summoned many tarts and just GoRed some to get lots of good stuff.
The chalice is a different matter. I agree that it's problematic. I agree it should be seriously increase price and requirement raised. The main stream tart strat. should be optimal w/o it. Only players that would choose (and pay for) being able to forge it will benefit from it (but pay for it in pretender design and # turns to RoI huge chalice investment)

Originally Posted by thejeff

Now the cost is the same, but without Chalice/GoH you get roughly a quarter as many useful ones.

My point. They are still good. Just lower crazy factor and up price a bit.
If they could be made unhealable then it would be perfect.

[Calahan]

Wraith is asleep today I see

Originally Posted by WraithLord

I'm not sure I'm following you.

Which nations?- AFAIK only GoH and chalice can heal undead.

The nation who has GoH up = 1 nation
The nation that has the Chalice = 1 nation

Hence, "at most two nations can heal the afflictions"

[WraithLord]

GoH up => Overwrite it.
Chalice forged => Wish it.
(So the two nations claim is based on false base assumption - that they are immutable and can exclusively abuse said mechanism)



That said, chalice is still too cheap and GoH as well probably.

Edit:
Oh, and I ain't asleep, just a long day at work and still haven't had a good evenings pampering of hot bath, cool beer etc :-)

[thejeff]

Originally Posted by WraithLord

The afflictions are not that bad. Even feeblemind are comparable and better than say Ettin.

Those that have full slots, maybe. Feeblemind also cuts mr. I'm not sure offhand what Ettin mr is.

Originally Posted by WraithLord

I disagree. GoR gave you much much more ROI in terms of diversity even w/o chalice. In-fact I made it a habit not to rush for chalice and not squabble over GoH. In two games that I won I summoned many tarts and just GoRed some to get lots of good stuff.

I think we may be agreeing here. I've used much the same strategy. Summon many tarts, GoR those w/o feeblemind. With the new changes that doesn't work: You summon a lot of tarts, but only a fraction are commanders, and only a fraction of those aren't feebleminded. GoR doesn't work on them, so you don't get to pick which ones you put the rest of the investment into.

Originally Posted by WraithLord

My point. They are still good. Just lower crazy factor and up price a bit.
If they could be made unhealable then it would be perfect.

They can be made unhealable. Remove Chalice and GoH from the game.

Making them better and more expensive doesn't help, nor does making them worse and cheaper, because neither changes the balance between those who can heal them and those who can't. Before you could pay roughly half the cost upfront (Gate) and then only pay the rest (GoR) on those that were worth it. Now you have to pay the whole cost upfront. That changes the balance. Without Chalice/GoH you now pay just as much for roughly 1/4 the SCs, before you only paid the GoR cost for the SC ones.

[WraithLord]

*one hot bath later *

Yeap. We do actually partly (fully?) agree. I see that

Let's break it down to three discordant factors:
A. GoR. check. 1.8 nailed that.
B. GoH. Yes. Too good Synergy, too cheap. But - at risk of overwrite and total loss of (GoH) investment. In your avg MP game you'd see GoH change hands precisely for that reason.
C. Chalice. Yes. Too good, way too cheap. Should be much more pricey. But- can be wished. Have you ever participated in a chalice wish war?- I have - It's for real.

So, A is overnerf of tarts. Some sort of compensation is needed for such supposedly bad-*** monsters. I mean dom would be poorer w/o them and at 1.8 settings they may become a rare sight.
B+C should be addressed as well by CBM though IMHO are less acute than A.

Now comes D into play: namely EDM and it's summons, by light of which death centric nations are, as of 1.8, at a disadvantage in the high end SC/Diversity summons section.

[kianduatha]

Originally Posted by WraithLord

*one hot bath later *

Yeap. We do actually partly (fully?) agree. I see that

Let's break it down to three discordant factors:
A. GoR. check. 1.8 nailed that.
B. GoH. Yes. Too good Synergy, too cheap. But - at risk of overwrite and total loss of (GoH) investment. In your avg MP game you'd see GoH change hands precisely for that reason.
C. Chalice. Yes. Too good, way too cheap. Should be much more pricey. But- can be wished. Have you ever participated in a chalice wish war?- I have - It's for real.

So, A is overnerf of tarts. Some sort of compensation is needed for such supposedly bad-*** monsters. I mean dom would be poorer w/o them and at 1.8 settings they may become a rare sight.
B+C should be addressed as well by CBM though IMHO are less acute than A.

Now comes D into play: namely EDM and it's summons, by light of which death centric nations are, as of 1.8, at a disadvantage in the high end SC/Diversity summons section.

But...you're saying in the same breath that Chalice/GoH are 'too good' for their effects on Tartarians and that EDM makes Tartarians an inferior choice. You can't have everyone simultaneously rushing to the Chalice/GoH for Tartarians *and* not even bother with Tartarians. If the majority of nations don't particularly care about Tartarians because they have other options, then there won't be such a rush to the Chalice...it'll just be a race among the Death-centric nations, most of which have other options as well. Right?