Mod: CBM 1.8 released

[WraithLord]

I'm not sure I'm following you.

Originally Posted by thejeff

I still maintain the fundamental problem with Tartarians is the afflictions. More specifically, that at most two nations can heal the afflictions.

Which nations?- AFAIK only GoH and chalice can heal undead.

Originally Posted by thejeff

If you price them for those nations, then they're too expensive for everyone else. If you price them for everyone else, those two get hordes of cheap SCs. Removing the afflictions would be the best solution, but I don't think that's possible.

The afflictions are not that bad. Even feeblemind are comparable and better than say Ettin.

Originally Posted by thejeff

I actually think the GoR change makes it worse. Previously boosting the cost of GoR allowed you to change the cost of only the useful tarts. Whoever had GoR or the Chalice could heal them all and GoR as many as they could afford, but other nations could summon them, but only GoR the non-feebleminded ones, lowering their cost per useful tart.

I disagree. GoR gave you much much more ROI in terms of diversity even w/o chalice. In-fact I made it a habit not to rush for chalice and not squabble over GoH. In two games that I won I summoned many tarts and just GoRed some to get lots of good stuff.
The chalice is a different matter. I agree that it's problematic. I agree it should be seriously increase price and requirement raised. The main stream tart strat. should be optimal w/o it. Only players that would choose (and pay for) being able to forge it will benefit from it (but pay for it in pretender design and # turns to RoI huge chalice investment)

Originally Posted by thejeff

Now the cost is the same, but without Chalice/GoH you get roughly a quarter as many useful ones.

My point. They are still good. Just lower crazy factor and up price a bit.
If they could be made unhealable then it would be perfect.

[Calahan]

Wraith is asleep today I see

Originally Posted by WraithLord

I'm not sure I'm following you.

Which nations?- AFAIK only GoH and chalice can heal undead.

The nation who has GoH up = 1 nation
The nation that has the Chalice = 1 nation

Hence, "at most two nations can heal the afflictions"

[WraithLord]

GoH up => Overwrite it.
Chalice forged => Wish it.
(So the two nations claim is based on false base assumption - that they are immutable and can exclusively abuse said mechanism)



That said, chalice is still too cheap and GoH as well probably.

Edit:
Oh, and I ain't asleep, just a long day at work and still haven't had a good evenings pampering of hot bath, cool beer etc :-)

[thejeff]

Originally Posted by WraithLord

The afflictions are not that bad. Even feeblemind are comparable and better than say Ettin.

Those that have full slots, maybe. Feeblemind also cuts mr. I'm not sure offhand what Ettin mr is.

Originally Posted by WraithLord

I disagree. GoR gave you much much more ROI in terms of diversity even w/o chalice. In-fact I made it a habit not to rush for chalice and not squabble over GoH. In two games that I won I summoned many tarts and just GoRed some to get lots of good stuff.

I think we may be agreeing here. I've used much the same strategy. Summon many tarts, GoR those w/o feeblemind. With the new changes that doesn't work: You summon a lot of tarts, but only a fraction are commanders, and only a fraction of those aren't feebleminded. GoR doesn't work on them, so you don't get to pick which ones you put the rest of the investment into.

Originally Posted by WraithLord

My point. They are still good. Just lower crazy factor and up price a bit.
If they could be made unhealable then it would be perfect.

They can be made unhealable. Remove Chalice and GoH from the game.

Making them better and more expensive doesn't help, nor does making them worse and cheaper, because neither changes the balance between those who can heal them and those who can't. Before you could pay roughly half the cost upfront (Gate) and then only pay the rest (GoR) on those that were worth it. Now you have to pay the whole cost upfront. That changes the balance. Without Chalice/GoH you now pay just as much for roughly 1/4 the SCs, before you only paid the GoR cost for the SC ones.

[WraithLord]

*one hot bath later *

Yeap. We do actually partly (fully?) agree. I see that

Let's break it down to three discordant factors:
A. GoR. check. 1.8 nailed that.
B. GoH. Yes. Too good Synergy, too cheap. But - at risk of overwrite and total loss of (GoH) investment. In your avg MP game you'd see GoH change hands precisely for that reason.
C. Chalice. Yes. Too good, way too cheap. Should be much more pricey. But- can be wished. Have you ever participated in a chalice wish war?- I have - It's for real.

So, A is overnerf of tarts. Some sort of compensation is needed for such supposedly bad-*** monsters. I mean dom would be poorer w/o them and at 1.8 settings they may become a rare sight.
B+C should be addressed as well by CBM though IMHO are less acute than A.

Now comes D into play: namely EDM and it's summons, by light of which death centric nations are, as of 1.8, at a disadvantage in the high end SC/Diversity summons section.

[kianduatha]

Originally Posted by WraithLord

*one hot bath later *

Yeap. We do actually partly (fully?) agree. I see that

Let's break it down to three discordant factors:
A. GoR. check. 1.8 nailed that.
B. GoH. Yes. Too good Synergy, too cheap. But - at risk of overwrite and total loss of (GoH) investment. In your avg MP game you'd see GoH change hands precisely for that reason.
C. Chalice. Yes. Too good, way too cheap. Should be much more pricey. But- can be wished. Have you ever participated in a chalice wish war?- I have - It's for real.

So, A is overnerf of tarts. Some sort of compensation is needed for such supposedly bad-*** monsters. I mean dom would be poorer w/o them and at 1.8 settings they may become a rare sight.
B+C should be addressed as well by CBM though IMHO are less acute than A.

Now comes D into play: namely EDM and it's summons, by light of which death centric nations are, as of 1.8, at a disadvantage in the high end SC/Diversity summons section.

But...you're saying in the same breath that Chalice/GoH are 'too good' for their effects on Tartarians and that EDM makes Tartarians an inferior choice. You can't have everyone simultaneously rushing to the Chalice/GoH for Tartarians *and* not even bother with Tartarians. If the majority of nations don't particularly care about Tartarians because they have other options, then there won't be such a rush to the Chalice...it'll just be a race among the Death-centric nations, most of which have other options as well. Right?

[Jarkko]

I am starting to think Possession might be slightly broken.

If you use Possess with a mage that is on the hero chart, then you can also mummify the hero back. Slightly schizo situation, the hero is both a mummy and the possessed unit, at the same time. Although techincally you see the hero with both the new name (the possesseds name) and the old name (the mummy). I suppose that is ok, although it sure feels odd when you think about it (perhaps not worth thinking too much ).

The best thing: If the unit you possess has seen many fights (like tough units tend to do, and incidently it will be a tough unit you want to possess), it instantly rockets to hero status. Again that is technically ok I guess, but I sure felt my jaw drop when I saw that

[WraithLord]

"If the majority of nations don't particularly care about Tartarians because they have other options, then there won't be such a rush to the Chalice...it'll just be a race among the Death-centric nations, most of which have other options as well. Right?"
That is a big if and remains to be seen. That said, I tend to think this is exactly what will happen, but here there's something much better than speculation: just wait a bit for real MP feedback re. post 1.8 Tarts.

[iRFNA]

Originally Posted by Jarkko

I am starting to think Possession might be slightly broken.

If you use Possess with a mage that is on the hero chart, then you can also mummify the hero back. Slightly schizo situation, the hero is both a mummy and the possessed unit, at the same time. Although techincally you see the hero with both the new name (the possesseds name) and the old name (the mummy). I suppose that is ok, although it sure feels odd when you think about it (perhaps not worth thinking too much ).

The best thing: If the unit you possess has seen many fights (like tough units tend to do, and incidently it will be a tough unit you want to possess), it instantly rockets to hero status. Again that is technically ok I guess, but I sure felt my jaw drop when I saw that

This makes me want to create some sort of possession mummy chain. Like possess a unit, get in the HoF, empower it 1 astral, possess a new unit, mummify the HoF unit, repeat. I'm not sure if it'd be very practical but it would amuse me greatly.

Actually, wait.. Don't the mummies come back with magic? Or is that only twiceborn? Which leads me to my next question: can an undead mage possess something?

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by iRFNA

Actually, wait.. Don't the mummies come back with magic? Or is that only twiceborn? Which leads me to my next question: can an undead mage possess something?

Yes, mummies have all magic paths. Yes, undead mages can possess. Yes, dead mummy heroes can be re-mummified.