EA Agartha - the game's red-headed stepchild (CBM)

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Calahan

- The national Heroes are ok, but don't offer enough because they don't give access to non-Agarthan magic paths. High Earth pathed Heroes mean little to Agartha, and high Water paths have limited use in general for any nation. I certainly wouldn't give up a N4/6 bless for it as you have no easy way to get regen on your SC's then (and regen on SC's is mostly always a must)

Would someone please tell me why 2hp/trn regeneration is exciting? I'm really not seeing this.

Also, never turn down free research, especially free researchers you don't have to pay for at all.

And the guy with 4 reinvigoration is just awesome. He defines 'cast all day'.

- While the Fire Plate does negate the encumbrance effects of the severe heat scale, it doesn't help with encumbrance overall as the armour itself has +2 encumbrance (which is what the severe heat gives you). Plus it actually has an overall negative effect on encumbrance as it adds a further +2 to spell casting encumbrance (which the severe heat doesn't do). Although the positive value of putting some armour on a SC is another matter although (I just thought I'd point out it has a negative effect on fatigue).

If you are just after the effects of the E9 Bless and LoS, then equipping just Bracers covers both of these. As the Bracers act as 'armour' for the purpose of these spells, and so allows the protection buffs (Bless, LoS) to take effect.

Here's the thing, E9's +4 protection applies to *every* piece of armor that is worn. And bracers also stack, even when multiples are worn. So adding armor + 2x bracers gives you 3x the E9 protection bonus. Good deal. So bracers are not a replacement for armor. Which is why you were going to put on armor anyway.

- You will struggle to survive a proper MP game with a Dominion scale of only 4. Even access to H3 preachers won't stop your life being a misery, and probably very short. You would have to play on a very big map (+25 provs per player) to get away with a Dominion scale of 4.

I haven't found dominion 4 to be that problematic, but my experience is somewhat limited. However, one of the key points here is you have an awake pretender, which means you'll actually average dominion spread slightly to a Dom 10 sleeping or imprisoned pretender. (1 guaranteed for Dom 10 vs. 3(?) at 40% = 1.2 expected dominion spread events/trn). Later in the game you might have more issues, but the early game shouldn't be a problem unless you're sandwiched in between a bunch of Dom9-10 SCs. (And then you may well have other problems).

- I have some concerns for your early research. With your Pretender forging each turn (as he should do), and your other mages going out as SC's and/or forging Bracers/Fire Plates/Stars of Heroes, you are really going to fall behind badly in the research game. And new reasearch centres will cost you at least 1700gp (fort+temple+lab).

So, you do build up a core of researchers even with some forging and some going out to be SCs. And of course any heroes help immensely here. I find myself in the 50RP/trn ballpark at the end of year 1, which is respectable. Also, tend to have Constr2/Conj3/thaum 2 by the end of year 1. I mean, even the forge lord does research until Constr 2 comes online.

- You will really struggle for money with your build. The effects of your Order 3 scales will be minimum outside of your capital as your low Dominion will mean it won't spread very far. Unless your H3 SC's stop to preach. And if you run up against some Dom9/10 neighbours, you will be lucky to see your Dominion outside your capital.

Your Luck 3 scale might help with the income, but I have two games on the go right now where I took Luck 3. In one of them I didn't have a single money event inside the first 18 turns, and in the other it was the first 23 turns before a money event occured. So you can't, or more accurately, you shouldn't rely on the Luck scale for money (at least not in my recent experience). Although the Luck scale is far more reliable for money under Turmoil 3 than Order 3. But then obviously you get less money again due to the effects of that scale change.

Actually, the other scales you have seem to effect the kinds of events you have, so O3 causes your events to favor tax revenue. Which is exactly what you want. I've had good luck with the O3Lk3 combination.

In the plurality of three test games I couldn't afford an oracle 1/11 turns in the first year (the third game i could afford an oracle every turn. That game also saw a fortress get started on turn 8 vs. turn 11-12 for the others).

[Jarkko]

Regeneration means less afflictions for those getting wounded. Also, later on the SC's with high HP pool will love the extra % regen they get from the bless.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Jarkko

Regeneration means less afflictions for those getting wounded. Also, later on the SC's with high HP pool will love the extra % regen they get from the bless.

Which sacred SCs will those be? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Umbrals are undead and therefore don't regenerate.

Also, the reduction in afflictions seems to scale with the %regen. At 5% its so negligible you'd need a large sample size to find a significant difference. I mean, sure, if we were talking N8 or N10 there might be something to that...

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Which sacred SCs will those be? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Umbrals are undead and therefore don't regenerate.

The Shroud is always there, with the Earth buffs available protection will be pretty nice even without "proper" armour.

Also, the reduction in afflictions seems to scale with the %regen. At 5% its so negligible you'd need a large sample size to find a significant difference. I mean, sure, if we were talking N8 or N10 there might be something to that...

Unless I am entirely mistaken, *any* regeneration drops the chance to 1/8 to get an affliction; higher regen just generates more HP but does not further improve the affliction resistance.

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Which sacred SCs will those be?

Hhhhhmmmmm your Oracles?!? They get +3 regen with a N4 bless.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Also, the reduction in afflictions seems to scale with the %regen.

Unless there's been a major mechanic change that I don't know about, then the chance to avoid afflictions due to regen is a fixed rate regardless of the percentage rate or value of the regen itself.


Another thing you might not be considering is what is your Forge Lord going to do long term? Sure he can forge Dwarf Hammers all day for 3E, but you can only use so many hammers. You can make some to trade as well, but you can only trade so many hammers. Plus trying to be frugle with every last Earth gem doesn't make too much sense playing a nation with abundent Earth gems. The Forge Lord is a great chassis, but if you limit it's forging options by only taking F/E paths, then you limit it's potential overall. A Nature path, and certainly at least 2 Astral, open up a world of possibilities for it.

One other thing as well, some players consider stacking Bracers for the E9/10 bless to be an exploit (although not me), and it is therefore not always a welcome sight in MP games. I have seen several players complain about it in the past. I don't think it is Working As Designed (at least not according to the last info I read on the subject 8+ months ago), so I think you need to at least make mention of this in your guide.


Edit: Damn crappy typing skills made me get attacked by ninja's

[TheDemon]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

Which sacred SCs will those be? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Umbrals are undead and therefore don't regenerate.

Also, the reduction in afflictions seems to scale with the %regen. At 5% its so negligible you'd need a large sample size to find a significant difference. I mean, sure, if we were talking N8 or N10 there might be something to that...

Have you actually done the testing? In my experience, any regen makes a large difference, although I have heard it does scale (and I have also heard it does not). I noticed a significant difference, for example, in testing Eagle King melee casters with regen and without regen. Perhaps I should test for this specifically.

Also, the Undead tag does not prevent regeneration. Tartarians for example, do regenerate.

[Agema]

Agartha absolutely should NOT need an awake pretender.

You've got blessed giants. An awe/Fear SC rush doesn't look an attractive option for the attacker: it'll be facing giants with good initial morale (12?), blessed +2, you should be fighting in your Dom +1, sermon of courage +2 - 17 morale! These dudes deal 21 per hit (Ancient ones) or 30 (Seal Guard). They should hack a SC into shreds.

If you're rushed by Elephants/Mammoths, use giants or trogs. Sure trample will hurt, but you're size 4 so it won't hurt that much, and with elephants' low Def you can hit them pretty easily for lots of damage. You can also use Oracles - elephants have got low MR, H3 smite will hurt.

If you're rushed by other blessed troops (e.g. Mictlan) especially with high Def, you might struggle more. However, not just your giants but your armoured Pale Ones (12 prot, 16-18?HP) can suck up a ton of punishment: you'll at least hit them a bit before you die, and Agarthans do plenty of damage on a hit. You can trample them with trogs, and employ plenty of magical firepower.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Agema

Agartha absolutely should NOT need an awake pretender.

You've got blessed giants. An awe/Fear SC rush doesn't look an attractive option for the attacker: it'll be facing giants with good initial morale (12?), blessed +2, you should be fighting in your Dom +1, sermon of courage +2 - 17 morale! These dudes deal 21 per hit (Ancient ones) or 30 (Seal Guard). They should hack a SC into shreds.

If you're rushed by Elephants/Mammoths, use giants or trogs. Sure trample will hurt, but you're size 4 so it won't hurt that much, and with elephants' low Def you can hit them pretty easily for lots of damage. You can also use Oracles - elephants have got low MR, H3 smite will hurt.

If you're rushed by other blessed troops (e.g. Mictlan) especially with high Def, you might struggle more. However, not just your giants but your armoured Pale Ones (12 prot, 16-18?HP) can suck up a ton of punishment: you'll at least hit them a bit before you die, and Agarthans do plenty of damage on a hit. You can trample them with trogs, and employ plenty of magical firepower.

Are we playing the same game? Are we reading the same post?

First, I didn't take an awake pretender to thwart rushes - nor did I claim that was his purpose anywhere. He's researching and forging, because EA Agartha has *nothing* going for it besides its mages, and they need spells and items before they're good for anything. You can barely play the game out of the box - that's why you need an awake pretender.

And... 'magical firepower'... lol. When you can't hit the broad side of a barn...

[TheDemon]

Very nice guide, and I agree with a lot of it. Luck is definitely useful if you can afford it, although I would say moreso for gem events than heroes. Furthermore, make it a priority to search all your provs with an E3D2 Oracle. If you're able to get a small death income, you can power yourself to Const 6 with Skull Mentors and then spam Lightess Lanterns to hit all your research goals pretty quickly. EA Argatha is one of the few nations that can forge both items with ease and also benefits greatly from Const research.

In terms of manual searching, level 2 or 3 is usually sufficient. I typically do my with the aforementioned E3D2H3 oracle, because level 4 earth and holy sites are pretty damn rare.

I do disagree with your choice of the Fire bless over a Nature bless. Firstly, any regen, however small, gives a massive ammount of affliction reduction. It may scale (I'm not so sure it does), but the ammount is huge even with just 5%. Secondly, against EA indeps, you don't actually need to hit them very often. You just need to stand there and let them wail on you and kill a few occasionally. Giant Sacreds vs Indeps, the indep morale will break first. The exceptions are Barbarians and Cavalry, which actually do damage when they hit you. So I don't think a Fire Bless is needed, nor do you need to use Seal Guard over Ancient Ones.

I played a 10-player 15 prov/player multiplayer game with EA Argatha, actually it was the first multiplayer game I won. I took an awake Forge Lord with F2 E9 S2 N6, which I afforded by taking Drain 3 and dom 4. I expanded with teams of 6 to 8 Ancient Ones backed by an Oracle smitespamming, and eventually added 4 to 6 Stone Hurlers. My objective was one expansion team every two turns. I rushed construction to level 4 with the pretender, forged up a ton of Skull Mentors and Lanterns on the way to Const 8 (turn 33), and won the game with hordes of tartarians and many blood stones turn 90.

If you went with an awake Forge Lord, F2 E9 N4, you could probably take Magic 1, and do the same thing.

Conj 3 Alt 4 was my plan if I needed early magic, for Earth Meld and Destruction. I think I picked up Conj 3 and Alt 2 right after I got Const 4, and Alt 4 sometime between Const 6 and 8.

[Agema]

Heroes...

Free researchers are a tiny drop in the research ocean. You'll get them on average about one every 8-9 turns with Luck-3. Instead of taking Luck-3, you'd do better taking Magic-1.

And what are the heroes really giving you? E5 is irrelevant: you'll get E5 oracles anyway, and you've got Earth Boots. You can cast any Earth spell in the game pretty much with national recruits. W5 is more interesting, but you'll pick up W2 easily and W3 if you're lucky on nationals. Add the water boosters you've got W4 at least. However, water arguably is the least of Agartha's 4 national paths: you get more traction out of fire and death (and obviously, earth).

Where Agartha most wants water is if you take a dip in the seas. Agartha is a genuine Amphibious race. If you're near the coasts, you'd be foolish not to grab provinces. You can put PD on them, and build castles, (although you don't get national mages underwater, so you want a build on provinces with indy mages). You're no badly outmatched underwater that an opponent could expect to easily crush you.