Conceptual Balance Mod 1.4

[quantum_mechani]

Originally Posted by Wrana

And I DO hate typos!
Not to repeat what was already mentioned and seems to be fixed by spellchecking I'll add some more things I think erroneous (mind, some of them were quite probably already in it by 1.3 - which still doesn't make them right!):
General:
Across-the-board cheap commanders and across-the-board Stealth 20 seem both unthematic and not good from the balance point of view. Commanders SHOULD cost more than common troopers and humble scouts SHOULDN'T be uncatcheable - especially ones which would stand out among population (Markata scouts with high Stealth are understandable, as well as those races with magical disguise ability. Human nations scouts can be better than Stealth 0, but not by much -and even this isn't necessary!). And some troops are too cheap, too - say, Raptors should be more costly then human light infantry, and Satir Infantry - more than Sneaks!
I think it would be more thematically appropriate for all Engineers to have Hammer as basic weapon, not dagger...
I think that javelins should get more shots in general - probably with Roman-based heavys getting new weapon called "heavy javelin" or somesuch. Light throwers SHOULD get some choice of not entering melee!
There seems to be just too damned much of multiheroes! And while some are good enough, Davata appearing at first year at Lanka castle may completely change course of a game. I think that even if we drop half of these, Worthy Heroes would remain more than worthy. And base encumbrance 1 for many heroes seems too good.
Base Resource cost for cavalry differs wildly. In many cases heavys have base 1, while in others lights have 3-5. I think it just needs to be decided upon once, then applied across the board.
gods:
Lady of Spring reduced Water skill, pathcost 80, added Forest Survival - seems quite unplayable in such form. Of course, Water+Nature = clam-maker, but I still don't think it so big a problem. And Survival is both quite useless for her and not particularaly thematic!
Monolith - Nature gems production doesn't seem thematic. I think some Luck-increasing would be better. Barring this, Astral gems...
Lawgiver - I think pathcost should be lower, as he is more of a Rainbow Pretender than SC-class. Then he could be more costly...
Nataraja - Astral 2 doesn't seem to be necessary - old way he could be taken magicless as expansion engine or get 1 path needed to bring magic diversity which wasn't necessarily Astral. And Astral bless isn't particularly handy for most nations...
Asynja - I think Glamour would be better for her than magic armor...
Lord of War - as I mentioned, something to improve his actual combat performance is needed. As he started out as mortal and his Dom score reflects it, it's possible to make mag. paths cheaper for him...
Deva - while thematically appropriate for Lanka, etc., doesn't allow bless strategy almost required for them. And none of India-based nations require SC Pretender (it may be taken for Bandar Log to open up Blood, but that's all)...
Mother of Monsters - seems to need either better natural protection or body slot - not creatures spawning... Or regeneration?
Virtue - as I already said, Astral seems to be somewhat redundant. Or it should just replace Air...
EA Marverny Horn Blower appears as a god in some other nations (at least, it did in 1.3.). There seems to be some "Horn Champion" Pretender for Marverny. It, however, lacks #pathcost and so gets it at 50 - surely inappropriate for mortal Pretender (it probably also should have higher stats to reflect his status as hero).
troops, etc.:
"Heavy Ashigaru Armor" sounds silly - these troops were lightly armored by definition. Nor should stealthy Bandits have heavy armor. I understand they aren't very good in melee - but they shouldn't be good! Maybe just making them somewhat cheaper is an answer...
EA Arco scout doesn't need higher morale - if he's fighting, it's already wrong!
EA Arco Chariot Commanders especially doesn't need to be cheap - and considering who they are based upon, it's far better to give them appropriate stats to make them thugs!
Oreiad probably should be somewhat tougher than mere humans - after all, they ARE spirits of the mountains. Then that high seduction would probably not be necessary.
Wind Riders probably shouldn't have lances - especially as in this era such are generally absent...
EA Ermor Equites shouldn't have Warhorse hoof - they aren't mounted on warhorses! And Ermor's strength is in its infantry in any case!
As I've already said, EA Ulm would be better with hatchets... something should probably also be done with their Iron& Steel Warriors...
Sauromatia Warrior Queen costs more than a Priestess. I think it should be vice versa.
Androphage Archers should cost even more - until known bug with poison-always-works arrows will be fixed - both in gold and resources.
EA Caelum Eagle King seems silly to me flying in plate armor - say, weightless scale would be more appropriate.
Bandar Archers shouldn't be Def 8 Mor 10 - they are elite warriors, trained from childhood! And they are not particularly good as archers anyway. If you think them too good, just make them more costly - it would be more appropriate.
Palankasha at 55 seem slightly too costly - and they have the same price in basegame anyway... While Asara seem to have no niche, even at 35...
Slave Troll - what's it??? And R'lyeh isn't the sea nation most needful of help coming on land!
ME Arcos - why new Mounted Commander? if it needs some to bring Elephantes to front, it can carry independents!
Hoplite Commander with Move 1 won't be taken by anyone, at whatever price...
Jotun Hurler has "none" as first weapon...
If Shuten-doji is made more of a thug, it should probably get less Leadership...
Oceania ME should be improved. There was a thread about this, which ended in almost nothing:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=39640
LE Ulm Pikeneers don't need higher morale - they are chaff of the nation. At the same time, I think Pikemen should be redone in small teams - like was done with Skavenslaves in Skaven mod - this will both make them less vulnerable to trample and more able to bring dreaded pikehedge to bear.
Jomon Samurai Archers get Pre 10. Though I don't estimate actual samurai archery very high, I still think that from the balance point of view this is a main defence Jomon has from enemy shhoters - so Pre 11 is appropriate...
Bogarus I still think needs total revamping. Still, for now I think that Black Hoods shouldn't have combination of high base resources, full helm and dagger! And I can say you there weren't so armed guys among Russian nomad Foederati! I would offer reduce base resource cost, take cheaper helmet (in my mod it's "Leather Hood") and either some scimitar-type blade, morningstar (unfortunately, there aren't lighter horseman's flail nomads actually used often in the game right now) or just spear.
Malaya Druzhina shouldn't actually have lances, by the way - real lances were used in Russia very rarely (only by Novgorod boyars and Polish/German mercenaries). They can, however, use heavy melee weapons - even glaives were often used from horseback in later period.
I don't think blowpipes should get 2 attacks, even if I agree they suck...
For Horse Tribe cavalry wasteland survival isn't so appropriate - they are plains dwellers, after all...
Hoburg militia seems to lose its slings in this version while they were appropriate...
Bartholomeus th Patriarch got base Encumbrance 6. Shouldn't it be somewhat less?
Hanif - Member of the Third Tier has 13 hp. Isn't it too much?
Hildegard the Heroine is armed with spear and has leather armor. Shouldn't she has something better?
Daidalos the Maker of the Labirinth has reduced stats, but no old age. Shouldn't it be vice versa?
Anthromachus has oldage 10000 and immortality. Why???
King of Legends has just 8 ap. Should be more?
Master with the Iron Crutch should be somewhat tougher..
Abasi (Machaka Hero) as an assassin seems plainly silly. Stealthy thug I think is enough.
Ebuart the Guardian of the Tree gets castle defence. Why?
Dwarf Elder for EA Vanheim gets research bonus. I'd say Forge bonus would be better.
Lug the Long-Handed doesn't have stealth as designer decision (as said by KO). I don't think it good idea to give him one. He is already good, and if you want to improve him, I'd just increase his Forge bonus!

By the way, I agree that Demonwhip should require Blood level to forge!

Wow, that's a lot to address, I'll take a shot at it.

*Arcoss the board cheap commanders/scouts with stealth 20 isn't quite what it seems. If the national version of these were the only options, I'd agree it's a bit pointless. But the independent versions of these everyone uses instead (becuase they don't eat fort turns) were not boosted, providing at least a tiny advantage to using something else.

*Hammers for daggers sounds reasonable, not that there is any real effect.

*Raptors and satyrs are not more expensive than human light infantry base game, I'm not sure why CB should change that.

*Javelins seem pretty well balanced as is, I don't really want to mess with them.

*I agree a bit with multiheroes, but there is no real way to scale them down without removing them altogether. And personally I think the vast majority of people are against removing any heroes WH adds. It's also really hard to imagine the heroes being unbalancing, I recall someone did a mod with far more crazy heroes, to rather mediocre game effect.

*I'm actually really fond of the lady of springs, that's why in CB I tried to set her apart a bit from all the other titan options. I think she is reasonable if not outstanding choice for many nations (certainly more than the great majority of base game pretenders), though I would not be adverse to a good idea for improvement. I don't really see why forest survival is unthematic, she seems clearly a woodland type god.

*I think it's pretty debatable whether astral or nature gems are better on the monolith, I don't have strong opinion either way. Luck effects seem less thematic however, and would also be harder to implement.

*I didn't mess with the path cost on the lawgiver because it seems Illwinter must have felt it was an important thematic point, given similar pretenders path cost.

*I don't see any particular reason you object to Nataraja magic?
It should be considered that he is 0 points base game and almost all titans got 50 points cheaper or equivalent boosts.

*Similar to the Lawgiver, the lack of glamour seems purposeful by illwinter.

*Lower path cost on the lord of war would seem to imply a mage not a warrior.

*I don't see a particular suggestion on the Deva? In any case she is a very decent expander I don't see why she has to be great at a bless too.

*Boosts for mother of monsters is not a bad idea, but removing the monster spawn seems strange.

*Hornblower is a bag, and one that only appears in worthy heroes by itself, not CB.

*Heavy ashigaru armor only means it's slightly heavier than average ashigaru armor, which does not seem so unreasonable. Dominions has much heavier troops with stealth.

*Extra morale for a scout is admittedly a rather frivolously change, but I'm not sure why it would be cause for compliant. I just thought he should get something for having a special sprite.

*Giving chariot commander super-human stats seems far more unthematic than a somewhat cheaper price. Though boosting the stats a few points, in addition to the price cut is pretty reasonable idea.

*Odreiad seem quite usable and thematic as is, I can't think why I'd mess with them.

*I can't think of a good reason to take away wind riders lances, which they also have base game.

*Possibly modding Ulm axes to be shorter would be reasonable, but I'm not sure it would be particularly thematic or helpful.

*Why should a warrior priestess cost more than a queen? Also, I believe it is similar base game.

*I'm inclined to agree on the poison archers, but significant nerfs, especially nation specific ones, almost always result in backlash.

*Reduced stats seems much more appropriate for the lowest class bandar than increased gold cost.

*Boosting eagle kings is the last thing I want to do.

*I think the palenkasha is still usually the best Lanka sacred even now, you might be right about the Asara though.

*The slave troll was a ready made unit already in the game, that even mentioned Ry'leh. Given EA Ry'leh is widely regarded as one of the weaker sea nations, giving them the unit seems a nice addition.

*MA Arco has the mounted commander base game as well.

*You are probably right about the hoplite commander, however arco has too many military commander to properly differentiate.

*Hurler sounds like a bug alright.

*I don't see why I should reduce the Shuten-Dji's leadership, they are hardly uber units that replace all Shinuyamas other options.

*Inter-nation balance is not the main goal of CB, but it's possible I could find some extra boost for Oceania. It should be noted CB does boost the early summons they can use greatly though.

*I really don't like combining several human units into one, leads to all kinds of weirdness with things like soulslay.

*Given that even now Jomon is most likely to recruit very little but samauri archers I'm reluctant to boost them back up.

*Blowpipes do not get 2 attacks... though I must admit thats a nice idea.

*Bogarus cavalry: Not bad suggestions, though I'm a bit reluctant to so greatly revamp the way Illwinter set them out.

*Various heroes: Most of what you mention was put in place by Turin, I have not gone over it with a fine tooth comb. However, people are in general against reducing the boosts Turin gave to heroes, even if they are somewhat marginal thematicness wise.

*Ideally, I agree on demon whip. In practice, I'm afraid it would see little to no use that way. I did consider an only blood slave cost but that seems worse.

Cris:

1. Gladiator is fixed.

2. I'll have to look into that.

3. I believe that should be fixed.

4. Hopefully I spotted that, pretty minor either way though.

5. Confusion has been bumped up to a2.

6. I'd much rather find other ways to boost Agartha than improve a summon so far overshadowing their others.

7. Not really opposed to this but it would be a fair amount of work.

8. Improving the range sounds quite reasonable.


Anyway, I really do appreciate feedback, so I hope everyone keeps it coming.

[Turin]

Originally Posted by Wrana

Bartholomeus th Patriarch got base Encumbrance 6. Shouldn't it be somewhat less.
Hanif - Member of the Third Tier has 13 hp. Isn't it too much?
Hildegard the Heroine is armed with spear and has leather armor. Shouldn't she has something better?
Daidalos the Maker of the Labirinth has reduced stats, but no old age. Shouldn't it be vice versa?
Anthromachus has oldage 10000 and immortality. Why???
King of Legends has just 8 ap. Should be more?
Master with the Iron Crutch should be somewhat tougher..
Abasi (Machaka Hero) as an assassin seems plainly silly. Stealthy thug I think is enough.
Ebuart the Guardian of the Tree gets castle defence. Why?
Dwarf Elder for EA Vanheim gets research bonus. I'd say Forge bonus would be better.
Lug the Long-Handed doesn't have stealth as designer decision (as said by KO). I don't think it good idea to give him one. He is already good, and if you want to improve him, I'd just increase his Forge bonus!

Since this is effectively worthy heroes feedback, I'll reply:

Bartholomeus: A relic from dom2, where arch theurgs had 8 base encumbrance, so reducing it to 6 was a buff. Should be brought in line with dom3 arch theurgs, so a base of 3 would be fitting.

Member of the third tier: black priests have 12, so I don't think 13 hp is too much for a hero unit.

Hildegard: See this is what qm means when he says people don't like him removing buffs from my heroes. I made her basically a mage hero by giving her n2a2 instead of n1a1 she has in cbm. With n2a2 she obviously does not need good equipment. n2a2 is probably too good in dom3 though by giving ulm access to 2 new paths. So I'd probably boost her to n1 a2 and leave the equipment the same.

Daidalos: Again a relic from dom2. Should be modified.

Anthromachus: The problem was that it's really hard to make an army leader hero interesting/ worthwile compared to a bunch of indie commanders. His description mentions him being reputedly immortal, so I just made him immortal for real.

King of Legends: Dunno I saw no reason to change his AP. Could be modified to be the same as a generic mummy.

Master with the Iron Crutch: He has the body of a crippled old man. Why should he be tougher?

Abasi: From the description:"He quickly flayed the animal and used the skin to swim unseen past his enemies. When he had passed the guards, he found himself in the camp of the enemy king. He took his log and thrashed the camp before the enemies could react." Sounds like an assasination to me.

Ebuart: Castle def could be dropped, but it's a small buff and he is a guardian so it's somewhat fitting.

Dwarf Elder: Again a (probably necessary) nerf from qm. They had forgebonus 20 in my version, which is probably too powerful, but forgebonus 10 would be nice.

Lug: Should lose stealth per the developers intention. I had assumed it was an oversight since he has glamour and added it without giving it much thought.

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

Wow, that's a lot to address, I'll take a shot at it.

That was without spells and items, which I am not so familiar for now, and am not sure about their effect on balance. Maybe some more on them in the end...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*Arcoss the board cheap commanders/scouts with stealth 20 isn't quite what it seems. If the national version of these were the only options, I'd agree it's a bit pointless. But the independent versions of these everyone uses instead (becuase they don't eat fort turns) were not boosted, providing at least a tiny advantage to using something else.

This I understand. But still, it isn't logical. And it, for example, removes advantage Bandars have with their Markata scouts, which were not boosted, or Vans scouts. Maybe some boost would be in order, but surely not +20 to all! As for commanders - they shouldn't be so dirt cheap in any case. I can't say whether its' possible to prevent broad usage of independent commanders, nor whether is any point of trying it. Some national commanders bring clear advantages, and there are no independents with Ld 80+, for example...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*Hammers for daggers sounds reasonable, not that there is any real effect.

No effect, but more logical.

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*Raptors and satyrs are not more expensive than human light infantry base game, I'm not sure why CB should change that.

But in example I brought, satyr sneaks WERE cheaper than satyr infantry in base game! And you specifically mentioned that an idea was to make common human infantry cheaper... %)

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*Javelins seem pretty well balanced as is, I don't really want to mess with them.

Do you use javelin version light cavalry much? Do you use peltasts much? In independents light infantry I would agree maybe - but then, they are just a chaff anyway...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*I agree a bit with multiheroes, but there is no real way to scale them down without removing them altogether. And personally I think the vast majority of people are against removing any heroes WH adds. It's also really hard to imagine the heroes being unbalancing, I recall someone did a mod with far more crazy heroes, to rather mediocre game effect.

Maybe. I just don't try such mods. And if the way is to remove them altogether... (I agree that track each one and patiently scale him/her down is a crazy work)

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*I'm actually really fond of the lady of springs, that's why in CB I tried to set her apart a bit from all the other titan options. I think she is reasonable if not outstanding choice for many nations (certainly more than the great majority of base game pretenders), though I would not be adverse to a good idea for improvement. I don't really see why forest survival is unthematic, she seems clearly a woodland type god.

So, you make paths for her as costly as for a Dragon due to being fond of her?! Girls, beware! Agree that she is a fair choice in basegame, but do not that she should be nerfed in CBM. The only possible reason I already listed - someone was afraid that she should be used with Astral to make and use pearls in crazy amounts. I don't think actual danger is so great and she is weaker than most Titans so I'd think she should retain pathcost 50...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*I think it's pretty debatable whether astral or nature gems are better on the monolith, I don't have strong opinion either way. Luck effects seem less thematic however, and would also be harder to implement.

I'd think more about Earth gems, actually, but this looks bad with it having Astral/Nature... Astral seems slightly more thematic to me as Stonehenge, etc. were used as neolithic observatories -> astronomy -> stars -> Astral gems...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*I didn't mess with the path cost on the lawgiver because it seems Illwinter must have felt it was an important thematic point, given similar pretenders path cost.

Possibly. Do you know how many people actually use him for MA Mictlan Pretender? I tried...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*I don't see any particular reason you object to Nataraja magic?
It should be considered that he is 0 points base game and almost all titans got 50 points cheaper or equivalent boosts.

Agree that he is cheap in basegame and it makes him useful.

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*Similar to the Lawgiver, the lack of glamour seems purposeful by illwinter.

Possibly. I seem to remember that she had it in Dom2...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*Lower path cost on the lord of war would seem to imply a mage not a warrior.

Problem is, he is too weak as a warrior without it! I tried to think up something which would make him strong enough in combat, but... Basic Awe is still more unthematic. Berserk wouldn't increase his damage output enough. Fear? Recuperation???

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*I don't see a particular suggestion on the Deva? In any case she is a very decent expander I don't see why she has to be great at a bless too.

Right now, I'd just like you (and others) to think on it. She is decent expander, yes, but the problem is most nations where she would be thematic Pretender (all India-based, i.e.) do not need such!

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*Boosts for mother of monsters is not a bad idea, but removing the monster spawn seems strange.

Well, actual character she is based on birthed just a few: Pan, Chimera and Pegasus iirc. And chaff-generation seems to be unworthy of such a character for me...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*Hornblower is a bag, and one that only appears in worthy heroes by itself, not CB.

I can almost swear I've seen it in CBM 1.3 few days ago!

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*Heavy ashigaru armor only means it's slightly heavier than average ashigaru armor, which does not seem so unreasonable. Dominions has much heavier troops with stealth.

Well, Avalonian Wardens have magic to account for it! Bandits don't. They use piecemeal armor, having an eye on not getting caught by actual troops. Probably you could slightly boost their Def or aps to reflect this, but armor?!

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*Extra morale for a scout is admittedly a rather frivolously change, but I'm not sure why it would be cause for compliant. I just thought he should get something for having a special sprite.

Well, he has a sling despite being pictured with spear only!
Maybe he should get boosted Precision then?

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*Giving chariot commander super-human stats seems far more unthematic than a somewhat cheaper price. Though boosting the stats a few points, in addition to the price cut is pretty reasonable idea.

Unthematic?? These guys are based on Homer's heroes, for all goodness! And "somewhat cheaper price" made them cost less that normal chariots! :crazy" Of course, I didn't mean making them more powerful than, say, Awakened hero or Knight Commanders, but this should be about their level...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*Odreiad seem quite usable and thematic as is, I can't think why I'd mess with them.

Well, they are usable, of course. On the other hand, Rakshasi cost the same iirc, while having better stats...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*I can't think of a good reason to take away wind riders lances, which they also have base game.

Except it would be very awkward to use them from Pegasus-back, you mean? Yes, it is in base game. And no, I don't like it there, too. By the way, I don't remember offhand, but think there are no other troops with big lances in EA...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*Possibly modding Ulm axes to be shorter would be reasonable, but I'm not sure it would be particularly thematic or helpful.

It would be helpful - as I pointed out, this will reduce both attack and defence penalties. And having Def 10 instead of 8 will make them quite more survivable against common troops, at least. And it's thematic as far as most Howard-based fantasy goes: there are nobody wielding 2 big axes in Howard's own stories, nor are in classical Conan movies iirc (big axes are mostly used as hand-and-a-half weapons, quite sensibly).

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*Why should a warrior priestess cost more than a queen? Also, I believe it is similar base game.

She is more useful? Can't just look in this case now, but generally priests are more costly than commanders... About queen - yes, it's a good reason, actually - but shouldn't she get some spice for it then?

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*I'm inclined to agree on the poison archers, but significant nerfs, especially nation specific ones, almost always result in backlash.

Well, you can always just comment it away as soon as the bug is fixed - though I seem to remember KO saying that they had no idea what causes it, so it could take quite a while...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*Reduced stats seems much more appropriate for the lowest class bandar than increased gold cost.

Sorry, but ALL Bandar are higher class! And making them less able with weapons than common infantry just looks silly to me.

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*Boosting eagle kings is the last thing I want to do.

Can't disagree with this. But then, they should get some weak armor (or even none at all) which would allow them to fly without too much magic. I seem to remember something called "gilded cuirass" from somewher...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*I think the palenkasha is still usually the best Lanka sacred even now, you might be right about the Asara though.

Palankasha tend to accumulate afflictions due to having no helms. And Kala-Mukha tend to be used due to the fact they are recruitable-everywhere anyway... About Asara I just don't know what to do. Even if they cost same as Anusara, donkeys are just so much better due to being effective flankers...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*The slave troll was a ready made unit already in the game, that even mentioned Ry'leh. Given EA Ry'leh is widely regarded as one of the weaker sea nations, giving them the unit seems a nice addition.

Never heard both of this, sorry.

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*MA Arco has the mounted commander base game as well.

Then why another was needed??

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*You are probably right about the hoplite commander, however arco has too many military commander to properly differentiate.

I don't know. Maybe make of them with bigger Ld but no Standard? Actually, of course, they were just from different ages...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*I don't see why I should reduce the Shuten-Dji's leadership, they are hardly uber units that replace all Shinuyamas other options.

I at least used them in preference to Bakemono Generals in basegame.. Of course, there are many mages and there are Mujinas, but as commander/thug...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*Inter-nation balance is not the main goal of CB, but it's possible I could find some extra boost for Oceania. It should be noted CB does boost the early summons they can use greatly though.

I sincerely hope so.

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*I really don't like combining several human units into one, leads to all kinds of weirdness with things like soulslay.

Unless I misunderstand, SS should just trigger second form in this case... Where am I wrong? What I can see are slightly buggy afflictions (especially disease). But a possible alternative would be to make them Size 1 - and this makes them more vulnerable to trample. Another thought was Animalawe - but unfortunately, cavalry isn't considered to be animals (siege penalty it would get would be appropriate - but there are a number of animal-only spells...)

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*Given that even now Jomon is most likely to recruit very little but samauri archers I'm reluctant to boost them back up.

Sorry. This I understand. Still seems somewhat, er... not good. Of course, actual Japanese armies were formed just so, but still...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*Blowpipes do not get 2 attacks... though I must admit thats a nice idea.

Sorry, #att confused me. :blush: And while I disagree with this idea strongly, I still don't know why anybody would use them...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*Bogarus cavalry: Not bad suggestions, though I'm a bit reluctant to so greatly revamp the way Illwinter set them out.

Up to you, of course. My own mod splitting them in 2 nations is still waiting for graphics... One day I will finish it!

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*Various heroes: Most of what you mention was put in place by Turin, I have not gone over it with a fine tooth comb. However, people are in general against reducing the boosts Turin gave to heroes, even if they are somewhat marginal thematicness wise.

Which, of course, doesn't mean they are right. There are good things there - such as Vanlade getting base stats of Hagadrott he is, but many others look pretty silly...

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

*Ideally, I agree on demon whip. In practice, I'm afraid it would see little to no use that way. I did consider an only blood slave cost but that seems worse.

Is it possible for it to require Blood level, but no slaves? Nothing in mod. manual seems to indicate otherwise...

On spells:
I don't see a sense of Spirit Curse costing a gem - iirc, it just curses 1 enemy, as per Curse which doesn't cost anything...
Wild Hunt and Erinies look to get too low level - I think that thematically they should appear later in the game..
Summon Fall Bears - Bears themselves are less useful than other seasonal spirits. Maybe they should get some boost (fear/berserk/recuperation/just higher stats)?
Bane for 4 gems seems too cheap
As does Lamia Queen for 15. Maybe 20?
Great Eagle I see no sense at 7th level even as commander... Lower level?
Amphiptere I would prefer to be summoned in some numbers instead of being commander that can't lead anyone...
Zmey (Bogarus again ) I would make somewhat more GoRable by giving some random magic picks (maybe look into item slots, too)...
Summon Kappa - I would prefer to have a possibility of getting some troops of these guys. Is it possible to include 2 versions of the spell?
Celestial Servant - I don't see use in him even at 1 gem apiece. Maybe he should get some non-combat bonus instead (unrest decrease, e.g.)
Cavern Wight at lvl 1 seems too early...
As does Telestic Animation at lvl 2. Especially if you consider nations with reanimating priests...
Astral Window I think quite useful at cost 2 with no need for reduction (not that it matters much - it would eat additional gems for continuation anyway).
Both Internal Alchemy and 1000 Year Ginseng are quite useful. I think they shouldn't get quite so cheap.
Blindness seems too early at research 2.
Hidden in Snow/Sand - while look slightly too costly in basegame, seem to get too cheap here. I'd think closer to 60, considering they produce both strong troops, thugs and added magic diversity...
While I welcome Legions of Steel at research 1, I always use it anyway, so maybe it's too early here.
Why Frost Fiend is cheaper than Devil? I think it actually slightly better and harder to get at (unless you're Niefelheim). Storm Demon I'd say is better than both and Demon Knight worse. Do you disagree?
Hell Power seems too easy at path level 1. Yes, it's risky, but...
Improved Crossbreeding seems to be cheaper than just Crossbreeding. Why?
Why Demon Jester should be commander - and what a sense of it if he can't lead anyone? He surely isn't a good enough thug to summon as such...
Why make Mound Kings poor leaders? They aren't useful in other qualities (except using Fire Bolas, that is).
Also, I disagree with nerfing skeletons.
Plus, shields are "rotten" - not "rotted" (don't remember whether this was mentioned already)!
On items:
There are several instances (at least, in separate item file) when 1 item appears several times. I don't know how the game handles this, but it can be bug-threatening. Ethereal Crossbow is one, appears as 0 and 4 levels? Demon Whip also.
Boots of the Behemoth look too good for lvl 0.
Bear Claw Talisman appears with mainpath 6 (!). Who needs it then?
And Summer Sword gets const. level 0 - I think it at least useful enough for Lesser Items (2).

All the best!

[Tifone]

What about the Demon Whip being blood only q_m? Like 2B... It would be a weapon mainly for blood nations and it seems quite thematic, a demon that trades his whip for blood slaves
5 F gems only, seems a little cheap and easy... you decide anyway of course

[chrispedersen]

Blood nations do not need a boost. Comparing blood and fire nations, fire is weaker.

I would keep demon whip 1F 1B. The cross path is thematic of demons, and it cuts down on the number of nations building it.
Which I think is important, considering how dropping it down to con-2 is new, and the game implications unclear.

[Wrana]

Originally Posted by Turin

Since this is effectively worthy heroes feedback, I'll reply:

Thanks. Continuing only on those where I still disagree:

Originally Posted by Turin

Member of the third tier: black priests have 12, so I don't think 13 hp is too much for a hero unit.

But he's an Illuminati mage, not a priest!

Originally Posted by Turin

Anthromachus: The problem was that it's really hard to make an army leader hero interesting/ worthwile compared to a bunch of indie commanders. His description mentions him being reputedly immortal, so I just made him immortal for real.

But he is free! Banner, etc., I think would be enough. And making him able to outlive Egypt, Greece and Byzntine Empire looks, er... hilarious. Immortality is possible, but I don't think it needed - and real immortality is almost unheard of in Greece mythology.

Originally Posted by Turin

Master with the Iron Crutch: He has the body of a crippled old man. Why should he be tougher?

Because he's Taoist Immortal with a title surely calling to mind some Chinese movies. You know what I'm talking about...

Originally Posted by Turin

Abasi: From the description:"He quickly flayed the animal and used the skin to swim unseen past his enemies. When he had passed the guards, he found himself in the camp of the enemy king. He took his log and thrashed the camp before the enemies could react." Sounds like an assasination to me.

And like stealthy thug to me. In any case, Machaka already has assassins aplenty. And term "assassinate" looks out of place in speech patterns of his description (somewhat stylized for tribal/Wild West story), so should be removed anyway.

Originally Posted by Turin

Ebuart: Castle def could be dropped, but it's a small buff and he is a guardian so it's somewhat fitting.

Maybe Guardian of the Tree should be better with a Patrol Bonus?

Originally Posted by Turin

Dwarf Elder: Again a (probably necessary) nerf from qm. They had forgebonus 20 in my version, which is probably too powerful, but forgebonus 10 would be nice.

Yes, I also think 20 is too big, but 10 OK (don't remember which bonuses varied ranks of Ulm Smiths have, but surely more) - and it looks more thematic for dwarves then research bonus...

[Aezeal]

lol such small stuff, who cares

[quantum_mechani]

Originally Posted by Wrana

This I understand. But still, it isn't logical. And it, for example, removes advantage Bandars have with their Markata scouts, which were not boosted, or Vans scouts. Maybe some boost would be in order, but surely not +20 to all! As for commanders - they shouldn't be so dirt cheap in any case. I can't say whether its' possible to prevent broad usage of independent commanders, nor whether is any point of trying it. Some national commanders bring clear advantages, and there are no independents with Ld 80+, for example...

As far scouts, it's not +20 to all, Illwinter already boosted default stealth to +10. I do agree commanders should not be as cheap or cheaper than comparable troops, and I've made an effort that that should not be the case (even though I suspect a great many national commanders would not get used much at 0 gold). 80+ leadership is fairly immaterial when you can simply spam more indies for the same job.

Originally Posted by Wrana

But in example I brought, satyr sneaks WERE cheaper than satyr infantry in base game! And you specifically mentioned that an idea was to make common human infantry cheaper... %)

I guess I don't understand what you are getting at here... human light infantry are cheaper, so are satyr infantry, so are satyr sneaks. All of them are rarely employed base game.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Do you use javelin version light cavalry much? Do you use peltasts much? In independents light infantry I would agree maybe - but then, they are just a chaff anyway...

It's not the fact they use javelins that makes them so bad, it's the fact they are light cavalry with associated costs. Though I guess it might make sense to give jav cavalry more ammunition. And I do use peltasts in CB.

Originally Posted by Wrana

So, you make paths for her as costly as for a Dragon due to being fond of her?! Girls, beware! Agree that she is a fair choice in basegame, but do not that she should be nerfed in CBM. The only possible reason I already listed - someone was afraid that she should be used with Astral to make and use pearls in crazy amounts. I don't think actual danger is so great and she is weaker than most Titans so I'd think she should retain pathcost 50...

I don't think you can claim she is nerfed, she lost a 125 point cost, that buys a lot of new paths. Plus getting water gems. She is different from other titans and that was the intent.

Originally Posted by Wrana

I can almost swear I've seen it in CBM 1.3 few days ago!

Then I would guess you had worthy heroes enables as well.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Unthematic?? These guys are based on Homer's heroes, for all goodness! And "somewhat cheaper price" made them cost less that normal chariots! :crazy" Of course, I didn't mean making them more powerful than, say, Awakened hero or Knight Commanders, but this should be about their level...

Yes, I agree stats comparable to knight commanders seems a good idea. But I don't think they should get more expensive than 5-10 gold more than a normal chariot.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Well, they are usable, of course. On the other hand, Rakshasi cost the same iirc, while having better stats...

In the end, all CB is aiming for is for as many options as possible to be viable in some situations. Oreiads clearly are viable, and EA Arco is not terribly weak either, so I really don't see the necessity. This is totally apart from the fact I'd find more hp unthematic.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Except it would be very awkward to use them from Pegasus-back, you mean? Yes, it is in base game. And no, I don't like it there, too. By the way, I don't remember offhand, but think there are no other troops with big lances in EA...

Sauromatia for one. Also Oceania, and one of Tir Na Og's commanders. And of course the indies.

Originally Posted by Wrana

It would be helpful - as I pointed out, this will reduce both attack and defence penalties. And having Def 10 instead of 8 will make them quite more survivable against common troops, at least. And it's thematic as far as most Howard-based fantasy goes: there are nobody wielding 2 big axes in Howard's own stories, nor are in classical Conan movies iirc (big axes are mostly used as hand-and-a-half weapons, quite sensibly).

This does seem like a decent idea.

Originally Posted by Wrana

She is more useful? Can't just look in this case now, but generally priests are more costly than commanders... About queen - yes, it's a good reason, actually - but shouldn't she get some spice for it then?

I checked and you are right base game the priestess actually is more costly. So I would not object to reducing the price, but it's a very delicate game, Sauromatia has so many military commanders its easy to leave some with 100% no niche.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Sorry, but ALL Bandar are higher class! And making them less able with weapons than common infantry just looks silly to me.

Even base game bandar have lower base defense than the vanara.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Then why another was needed??

There is one base game, one in CB, no real difference other than cost.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Unless I misunderstand, SS should just trigger second form in this case... Where am I wrong? What I can see are slightly buggy afflictions (especially disease). But a possible alternative would be to make them Size 1 - and this makes them more vulnerable to trample. Another thought was Animalawe - but unfortunately, cavalry isn't considered to be animals (siege penalty it would get would be appropriate - but there are a number of animal-only spells...)

With extra forms, yeah, it might be workable. I'm not sure how it would make them specifically much better against cavalry though.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Is it possible for it to require Blood level, but no slaves? Nothing in mod. manual seems to indicate otherwise.

I don't believe this is possible.

Originally Posted by Wrana

I don't see a sense of Spirit Curse costing a gem - iirc, it just curses 1 enemy, as per Curse which doesn't cost anything...

Quite true, but something exactly similar to curse seems even worse.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Wild Hunt and Erinies look to get too low level - I think that thematically they should appear later in the game..

Ideally I agree, but the effects are not very moddable, and I'm not willing to go lower on gem cost for a global, or path cost thematically, so it's the best of some poor choices.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Summon Fall Bears - Bears themselves are less useful than other seasonal spirits. Maybe they should get some boost (fear/berserk/recuperation/just higher stats)?

If I were to tweak them I'd simply knock some gems off the cost. I'd be interested if there is wide agreement on their relative weakness.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Bane for 4 gems seems too cheap
As does Lamia Queen for 15. Maybe 20?

I still rarely see these, so apparently not.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Great Eagle I see no sense at 7th level even as commander... Lower level?

That's possible... there are so many low level summons to compete with though.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Amphiptere I would prefer to be summoned in some numbers instead of being commander that can't lead anyone...

Seems more like a solitary creature in my own subjective sense of thematicness.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Zmey (Bogarus again ) I would make somewhat more GoRable by giving some random magic picks (maybe look into item slots, too)...

I suppose I could give some fire magic, but I really have a hard time imaging them being GoRed even with some magic and improved slots.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Summon Kappa - I would prefer to have a possibility of getting some troops of these guys. Is it possible to include 2 versions of the spell?

It would be some work, I'm not sure it's worth it.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Celestial Servant - I don't see use in him even at 1 gem apiece. Maybe he should get some non-combat bonus instead (unrest decrease, e.g.)

Not a bad idea, not sure how much difference it would really make though.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Cavern Wight at lvl 1 seems too early...

Considering he is probably still too sucky to bother summoning, I disagree.

Originally Posted by Wrana

As does Telestic Animation at lvl 2. Especially if you consider nations with reanimating priests...

The reanimation issue is quite possible... still better early than cheap, because of that.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Astral Window I think quite useful at cost 2 with no need for reduction (not that it matters much - it would eat additional gems for continuation anyway).

It's not exactly abusable cheaper, so I don't see a real problem.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Both Internal Alchemy and 1000 Year Ginseng are quite useful. I think they shouldn't get quite so cheap.

They might both have rather niche uses at higher costs, but given they are rather unique effects spells, and national, I'd like to see them as useful as possible.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Blindness seems too early at research 2.

It might be... but fire needs some help, and I have not seen it abused yet.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Hidden in Snow/Sand - while look slightly too costly in basegame, seem to get too cheap here. I'd think closer to 60, considering they produce both strong troops, thugs and added magic diversity...

Again, fun spells i have a hard time seeing as abusable, If they truly become the overshadowing use of water/earth gems I may have to reconsider.

Originally Posted by Wrana

While I welcome Legions of Steel at research 1, I always use it anyway, so maybe it's too early here.

Legions of steel tends to get much less useful late in the game, so I'd rather give it it's niche.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Why Frost Fiend is cheaper than Devil? I think it actually slightly better and harder to get at (unless you're Niefelheim).
Storm Demon I'd say is better than both and Demon Knight worse. Do you disagree?

I must admit I have not carefully analyzed between the frost fiend and devil, I just went by Illwinter's original cost levels between the two. It is notable though that there are far more fire/blood mages than water/blood.

I would say demon knight is in most situations better than the storm demons, I was very wary of overcheapening a high prot low enc troop with fear.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Hell Power seems too easy at path level 1. Yes, it's risky, but...

I'd just like to see it used, I would be very surprised if people can dominate the early game with it.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Improved Crossbreeding seems to be cheaper than just Crossbreeding. Why?

This actually a good point, I should probably just up the improved versions number of effects and leave it more expensive.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Why Demon Jester should be commander - and what a sense of it if he can't lead anyone? He surely isn't a good enough thug to summon as such...

The base demon jester is clearly useless, but most boosts are quite unthematic. You don't want swarms of them, and you don't want them excellent in combat.

Instead, they do exactly what jesters should, frustrate opponents by distracting assassins and commander targeting spells. They can also be used for simple tasks like carrying items and gems, building forts, possibly a chassis for spell casting items, etc.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Why make Mound Kings poor leaders? They aren't useful in other qualities (except using Fire Bolas, that is).

This was another attempt to encourage use of national commanders. It doesn't seem to have changed much and I'll probably undo it.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Also, I disagree with nerfing skeletons.
Plus, shields are "rotten" - not "rotted" (don't remember whether this was mentioned already)!

No, it says exactly what it means, they are rotten as shields.

Originally Posted by Wrana

There are several instances (at least, in separate item file) when 1 item appears several times. I don't know how the game handles this, but it can be bug-threatening. Ethereal Crossbow is one, appears as 0 and 4 levels? Demon Whip also.

Thanks for pointing that out, it does need some cleaning up.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Boots of the Behemoth look too good for lvl 0.

I have yet to see one used, base or cb, let alone to good effect.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Bear Claw Talisman appears with mainpath 6 (!). Who needs it then?

Mainpath 6 makes the main path nature.

Originally Posted by Wrana

And Summer Sword gets const. level 0 - I think it at least useful enough for Lesser Items (2).

Another one I have yet to see anyone forge, in any circumstance.

It does seem like there is quite a bit we disagree on, but that's fine. The mod is really for the sake of the community- on almost any aspect of, if you can find enough people that agree with you on a specific change I'm almost certain to implement/unimplement it.

[Aezeal]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrana
Summon Kappa - I would prefer to have a possibility of getting some troops of these guys. Is it possible to include 2 versions of the spell?

It would be some work, I'm not sure it's worth it.


--> I would imagine they would mostly be used as a commander + troops.. so why not make such a summon spell for a bit higher cost, it's not like they are that powerfull.

I still think most the rest is very small stuff and not worth the long long post QM has to make about it but that isn't my problem and I'll admit there are some points (those where QM agrees )

[chrispedersen]

In the end, all CB is aiming for is for as many options as possible to be viable in some situations. Oreiads clearly are viable, and EA Arco is not terribly weak either, so I really don't see the necessity. This is totally apart from the fact I'd find more hp unthematic.

Please keep lances on wind riders. Arco *almost* has a bless strategy with them. They are cool units - and rather than remove the lance, I would lower the cost.[quote]