does religious *need* the talisman?

[Pax]

If the Talisman were removed, and no other "goodies" put in it's place, I would call Religious only a 1000-cost trait at best.

Here's a thought for reqorking Religious, as it appears in stock SE4:

No Talisman.

Additional levels of the Shrines (4 to 6), allowing up to 2x the effect, for proportionately increasing costs. As it is, the War shrine is made pointless by the Talisman, and the Time shrine is only half as good as the System Robotoid.

Add in planet-only Versions of the shrines, as appropriate; perhaps call the Planetary ones "Shrines" and the System-wide Versions "Temples" ... ? Thus, the Religious player could forgo the entire Robotoid/System Robotoid line of research,a nd use Shrines and Temples of the Time variety.

Add religious-based training facilities -- with a slightly higher cap, say 25%.

That, to me, would be worth most or all of 1500 racial points. However, note that there would then be NO ship-based components at all.

[gregajs]

What about replacing the Talisman with component sized Version of some of the shrines? For example, a ship could be outfitted with a war talisman, or a death talisman. This would also solve the problem of many of their most useful shrine abilities only being available on the defensive.

[tesco samoa]

i think it is fine the way it is. If you want to change it mod it....

If you cannot beat the talisman then you have to change your set up....

In Dim 2x I went from being beaten by the talisman all game long to winning every battle against the talisman fleets. All it took was an adjustment of ships.

Here is a hint. Keep your fleets together when fighting the talisman player.

[PvK]

I think the War Shrine is very valuable, and I also think it is more interesting as a facility than as a component. Having a 15% two-way combat bonus that no one else (except Temporal) can match, for no maintenance and no ship space used is very powerful. Limiting to facilities is an interesting limitation, and creates interesting tactics as and against religious empires. It tends to be overshadowed by the talisman in unmodded games, but it's not useless even then. Unless, of course, your play style doesn't include using it.

PvK

[PvK]

BTW, does War Shrine stack with Events Predictor?

[Gozra]

In the hands of an experienced player the Talisman can be very tough. A solution I propose (and very easy to implement) is make the cost of the Talisman higher about 5000 for minerals, organics, and radioactives may be just right. I would say that in a developed game the talisman is almost indestructable.

[Despotic Fiend]

I think the Talisman is fine as it is. I don't see how it unbalances the game in any real sense of the term. Consider that fleet training+combat sensors+certain weapons with built in to hit bonuses get 99% to hit bonus. Making the Talisman a 99% to hit modifier would make researching the talisman pointless since you can get the training and sensor bonuses for about half the cost of researching the talisman.

I do like the idea of replacing the Talisman with War and Death Talismans and making new levels of the religious tech. Consider War, Death, Nature, Time, Fate SHRINES as planetary effect facils I-II(Religious Tech 1-3) and War, Death, Nature, Time, Fate TEMPLES as system effect facils I-III(Religious Tech 4-6) With War and Death Talismans of three seperate levels made vaialbe at levels 4-6 of Religious Tech. I think that would be an excellent MOD idea, but the Talisman as is is just fine for the stock game. The sheer size of the Talisman in comparison to ECM and Combat Sensors means that most people will use the Talisman WITHOUT ECM or stealth armour and thus have a much lower defense bonus, or they will be forced to trade off a weapon or two to keep the defense bonuses. Either way, the Talisman is not an unbalanced tech, it's fine the way it is.