does religious *need* the talisman?

[tesco samoa]

i think it is fine the way it is. If you want to change it mod it....

If you cannot beat the talisman then you have to change your set up....

In Dim 2x I went from being beaten by the talisman all game long to winning every battle against the talisman fleets. All it took was an adjustment of ships.

Here is a hint. Keep your fleets together when fighting the talisman player.

[PvK]

I think the War Shrine is very valuable, and I also think it is more interesting as a facility than as a component. Having a 15% two-way combat bonus that no one else (except Temporal) can match, for no maintenance and no ship space used is very powerful. Limiting to facilities is an interesting limitation, and creates interesting tactics as and against religious empires. It tends to be overshadowed by the talisman in unmodded games, but it's not useless even then. Unless, of course, your play style doesn't include using it.

PvK

[PvK]

BTW, does War Shrine stack with Events Predictor?

[Gozra]

In the hands of an experienced player the Talisman can be very tough. A solution I propose (and very easy to implement) is make the cost of the Talisman higher about 5000 for minerals, organics, and radioactives may be just right. I would say that in a developed game the talisman is almost indestructable.

[Despotic Fiend]

I think the Talisman is fine as it is. I don't see how it unbalances the game in any real sense of the term. Consider that fleet training+combat sensors+certain weapons with built in to hit bonuses get 99% to hit bonus. Making the Talisman a 99% to hit modifier would make researching the talisman pointless since you can get the training and sensor bonuses for about half the cost of researching the talisman.

I do like the idea of replacing the Talisman with War and Death Talismans and making new levels of the religious tech. Consider War, Death, Nature, Time, Fate SHRINES as planetary effect facils I-II(Religious Tech 1-3) and War, Death, Nature, Time, Fate TEMPLES as system effect facils I-III(Religious Tech 4-6) With War and Death Talismans of three seperate levels made vaialbe at levels 4-6 of Religious Tech. I think that would be an excellent MOD idea, but the Talisman as is is just fine for the stock game. The sheer size of the Talisman in comparison to ECM and Combat Sensors means that most people will use the Talisman WITHOUT ECM or stealth armour and thus have a much lower defense bonus, or they will be forced to trade off a weapon or two to keep the defense bonuses. Either way, the Talisman is not an unbalanced tech, it's fine the way it is.

[Fyron]

I don't see how it unbalances the game in any real sense of the term. Consider that fleet training+combat sensors+certain weapons with built in to hit bonuses get 99% to hit bonus.

You can get much more defensive bonus than offensive bonus. Something like 40% more (IIRC). So, that 105 bonus to hit (ignoring weapon bonuses) is nullified and overwhelmed by defensive bonuses.

Some people's problem with the Talisman is that it gives a 100% guarantee. Nothing should be 100% guaranteed.

[ January 08, 2003, 01:13: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[PvK]

Originally posted by General Enigma:
I think the Talisman is fine as it is. I don't see how it unbalances the game in any real sense of the term. Consider that fleet training+combat sensors+certain weapons with built in to hit bonuses get 99% to hit bonus. Making the Talisman a 99% to hit modifier would make researching the talisman pointless since you can get the training and sensor bonuses for about half the cost of researching the talisman.

This is written as if you don't understand how to-hit chances are calculated. If the Talisman were given any bonus, it would be a higher bonus than any non-religious race could achieve, because it is a unique type of component. Offensive and defensive bonuses stack and counter each other, and with the ordinary techs, they balance each other out so that it gets difficult to hit other maxed-out ships without closing to close range, if you can. Meanwhile, unmodded Talisman ships are hitting 100% of the time, probably from range 8, and then moving away at full speed. Even a 10-15% to-hit advantage would make the Talisman worth installing in late-game ship designs.

PvK