intelligence projects chances of success

[Arkcon]

I like intel projects. I like to decide if I will ruin a planet, kill population, or just spy on the empire's designs. I sure wish tech stealing was wor useful.

I realize the intel projects is a little hokey. I would like it if counter intel was automatic based on number of facilities or something.

One thing I never understood in any 4X game (and by that I mean SE3, SE4 and GalCiv/OS2 ), is how just building intel facilities gets you intelligence points.

Would US CIA be better if there were more CIA buildings nationwide? Not really, what works is sources in the field. IMHO, intel should be improved by building facilities near the empire you're spying on, not a megopolis near your home planet.

[couslee]

It's abstracted. each facility represents a number of field operative. the planet the facility is built on represents their home town. that make it easier?

I also have had CI block an attack when it did NOT have any points going towards it. I intentionally put a project that was more than I was producing in a turn in front of my CI project, and CI still stopped the attack because of the accumulated amount. This makes more sence anyway than having to HAVE to complete any other projects in front in order for it to work. Test it out for yourself Fyron. you'll see. (will make you a happy camper 4 sure)

now if I could just figure out how much CI I have accumulated then I would be estactic.

[Cheeze]

One of the primary questions in this thread was not addressed, perhaps because few know the answer. Even after a player has broken through an opponent's CI, there is still a chance of success or failure. I have run enough intel missions that have failed for reasons outside of the CI of my target. For instance, I would guess that the chance of success on a Puppet Political Parties operation is considerably less than that for Covert Recon or Ship Bomb. What that chance is for any of these, THAT is something I would like to see. I would like to learn, on top of a success or failure, how does the game determine that the target learns of an attack, and then if they know who ran the operation on them?

You cannot say that intel only represents field operatives. Intelligence derives most of its strength not from field operatives (those who gather or report information) but from those people who can analyze a great deal of data, sift out the more likely truths from the less likely, the inaccuracies and the misinformation, and come up with an assessment of situations. As for the number of intel facilities, the CIA (to use that example) doesn't only exist at Langley. That is a administrative center, but there are many branch offices, in the US and around the world (some visible, some no doubt hidden). The more "facilities", the better to recruit, train, analyze, collect, disseminate...pretty much all the activities of an intelligence force for a government.

All this being said, the SEIV intel seems too much of a numbers game. Generally, the races that excel in intel also already possess excessive resource and research generation, so there are few instances where a race strictly dedicated to intel can Last. And an already powerful empire will just be that much better defended and threatening through the sheer size of its intel.

[Fyron]

Cheeze, the only project that has a chance to fail once it gets past the CI is the Puppet Political Parties (50% failure rate). All other projects have a 100% chance of success.

Did you guys have points going into a different CI project though? Cause I did say:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
You have to spend points in at least one CI project during a turn for any points in them to be used for defense.

If you are spending points in CI Project X, points in CI Project Y will be useable for defense. SE4 takes the points out of the Last CI project in the queue first, so this could easliy cause your confusion.

[Slick]

I know that the workings of CI have always been difficult to understand sometimes. I don't think you have to spend points on any CI project to have it work - so long as it has stored points in it. I routinely place 2 CI projects which are filled with lots of points at the end of the intelligence queue and do not apply points evenly. I normally place enough intelligence attacks before them such that no points will make it to the CI projects. I do this to ensure that I don't accidentally complete a CI project. In no case have I ever seen an attack get thru until all CI points are used up. As an aside, I notice that the CI points are "used up" starting from the rightmost CI project and move left. This is useful if you have a CI2 and CI3 running at the same time (CI2 still had points in it when I got CI3) I just keep the CI2 project at the rightmost slot until it empties and then replace it with a CI3 because it is more effective. When my CI projects get "low", I will reorder the queue to recharge them.

I think there is also confusion on the chances of success. I too believe that all of the attacks are 100% unless blocked by CI except PPP, which is 50%. BUT an attack can fail even if it got thru the enemy CI if it had no available targets Example: you have been using Crew Insurrection relentlessly on an opponent and suddenly you have all your attacks fail because he has no ships left! I think a more correct way of saying it is that all (except PPP) will succeed at 100% if they overcome CI and they have a legitimate target.

The system is definitely not intuitive. I too would like to see the exact number of points in the CI projects. Also the all-or-nothing aspect does make it somewhat unrealistic.

Slick.

[ January 17, 2003, 07:55: Message edited by: Slick ]

[Fyron]

These are not guesses on my part. This is how the system works, as gleaned from nearly 2 years of browsing on this forum. Everyone that I have ever seen post on this that knows how it works has posted the same things I have. I have seen this in action myself. Unless a major change was made in the latest patch that no one is aware of, how I described the CI system is how it works.

[trooper]

I think I'm totally lost in intelligence concepts !

To be brief :

- the best strategy for CI is to always have an active CI project, without necessarly putting Intel points in it each turn

- The best strategy to succeed one's Intel attacks is to perform as many attacks as possible, in order to consume the enemy CI points storage ?

[Fyron]

You need to spend points in at least 1 CI project each turn to get the points stored in all CI projects to function.

[Arkcon]

Originally posted by trooper:
I think I'm totally lost in intelligence concepts !

To be brief :

- the best strategy for CI is to always have an active CI project, without necessarly putting Intel points in it each turn

Well, if it completes it's points one turn before an enemy completes one of theirs, then its wasted

Originally posted by trooper:

- The best strategy to succeed one's Intel attacks is to perform as many attacks as possible, in order to consume the enemy CI points storage ?

That's true. Although, taking out enemy planets with intel facilities on them works much better

[Slick]

Originally posted by DavidG:

quote:

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Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
You need to spend points in at least 1 CI project each turn to get the points stored in all CI projects to function.

In the situation I was refering too I had one CI project that was at the bottom of the stack and thus having 0 points put into it. It had been that way for several turns and I got a message in game "Counter Intelligence - Our opperatives were able to stop a sabotage attack..."
I've got too assume maybe this was changed recently or else there is some other reason it could be stopped because I agree I have read what you describe in several threads.

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Yes, not to beat a dead horse or be a jerk about it. But I am also certain I have gotten those Messages and seen the amount of CI in the rightmost project get lowered without having points being entered into any CI projects. This would indicate that CI is effective without actively adding points each turn. I have seen this in every game I have played because I normally set up my intel in a similar manner.

IF I do appeciate and value your experience. You have posted numerous answers to questions here and I highly respect your Posts. Possibly we have stumbled onto something that we are both finding to be true but conflicting due to the way we set up intel ??? I will do some testing and post the results.

One thing that I have not tested outright is if an incoming attack completely drains a given CI project, but you have other CI projects with enough points, does the attack get through or does the 2nd CI project pick up defending where the Last one left off...

Slick.