Ship size vs. weapons

BKrani · #1 January 31st, 2001, 07:06 AM

quote:
Originally posted by apache:
However, in space, beam attenuation goes to approximately nil, because there are so few particles to actually run into.

Not quite - though I might be talking a cross angles to yourself. Over the distances we're referring to, beam weapons will probably spread a little. I'm not sure just what 'X'th century focusing techniques are like but it's highly unlikely that the focussing is 100% perfect. Over a few 100,000 kms, even at a tiny percentage of a degree misfocus, the beam will spread until it's inefectual - eventually. Otherwise anyone with a simple communications laser and a good aim could drill a hole through a planet on the other side of the universe - eventually.

quote:
But then again, a ship moving with 30 Gs <snip> On the other hand, its safe to make the assumption that the propulsion systems in the game are based on non-inertial principles, so the crew would not feel a thing if the ship could move that fast.

I wasn't thinking of non-inertial systems, inertial dampers or gravity polarisers. Though when we're talking future techs here so who knows... However, what I was thinking when I mentioned 30Gs was advanced G suits, auxillary blood pumps, drugs to promote conciousness etc. I suspect that 30Gs for short times with advanced medical techniques is about the limit of what HUMANS can endure force wise. Any more and we start to suffer serious internal tissue damage.

What other races might be able to withstand is anyones guess.

However, once you start to include non-inertial systems, then beam combat outside of the milisecond range becomes infeasible. Without acceleration limits, any ship could immediately accelerate out of the way of incomming fire (assuming they knew it was comming). Acutally, they could probably accelerate out of combat were this the case. Combat timeing would then likely become one of aiming & firing before the target can react. On that basis, I don't favour non-inertial ideas. Inertial dampers maybe. They imply a limit to what interia can be absorbed. And gravity polarisers work in proportion to whatever local gravity fields are around. All speculation anyway...

Cheers.

Aub · #2 January 31st, 2001, 07:21 AM

quote:
Originally posted by BKrani:
...However, once you start to include non-inertial systems, then beam combat outside of the milisecond range becomes infeasible. Without acceleration limits, any ship could immediately accelerate out of the way of incomming fire (assuming they knew it was comming)...

Hmm, according to the Einstein there is no way they can know it is coming. Information cannot travel faster than light -- or it can cause all kinds of temporal paradoxes.

You can still try to predict what the enemy ship will do however, e.g. by observing its actions and trying to reverse-engineer its navigational software

Aub

BKrani · #3 January 31st, 2001, 08:13 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Aub:
Information cannot travel faster than light -- or it can cause all kinds of temporal paradoxes.

But don't forget that this is just a game... Repeat after me - 'Just a Game'!. Seriously (or at least, a little more seriously), in this simulation, we've got vessels traveling most of the way across a system in less than 0.1 of a year. Not to mention, traveling the vast distances between systems in a fraction of that time so there's probably some f.t.l. travel.

That said, I realised that what I said earlier was a little problematic. I mean, being able to tell that a beam weapon is incomming stretches the boundaries of belief a little.

Beam weapons (visible spectrum lasers that is) are relatively easy to defend against though. You just need a mirror finish. Proton and neutron beams are really particle weapons and probably move at a much slower speed (relatively). I acknowledge though that I'm not an expert, or even well read on the subject of these types of systems.

Cheers.

Puke · #4 January 31st, 2001, 08:28 AM

oh yeah, bring reason to super science. let me be the devils advocate for a sec here (like i really look for permission):

mirror finish will reflect all kinds of lasers.. but good luck having any kind of stealth with that. i remember some star trek quote from the klingons... "i respect the federation, who else has the balls to paint their war ships WHITE and put RUNNING LIGHTS on them." of course i also recall a quote from a Finnish sniper in WWII "I like fighting the Russians. They fight standing up." Gawd DARN, you have to respect the Fins, winter 1939-1940 saw saw some of the greatest heroism in the history of man.

i digress. as far as FTL information travel, we are doing it today (in the lab anyway) with intertangled pairs of photons and funkey quantum mechanics that I dont even pretend to understand. I am sure I can dredge up some links if anyone is interested. I dont think it invalidates Einstienean (spelling?) realitivity, but I think the way most people view realitivity is generally flawed. granted, matter acquires mass as it accelerates toward the speed of light, but FTL travel in the SEIV case involves neat fiction like space 'folding' or wormholes (covered in current understanding of quantum mechanics.. anyone familiar with the principals used in _CONTACT_?)

shoot, im rambling.. i will cut this short here.

Aub · #5 January 31st, 2001, 08:30 AM

quote:
Originally posted by BKrani:
But don't forget that this is just a game... Repeat after me - 'Just a Game'!. ...

'Just a Game'. 'Just a Game'.

Ok, I realize that. But the calculations involving the distance from Earth to Moon and how much acceleration a human body can withstand sounded soooo serious! So I could not resist the temptation

On a more serious note, indeed, I strongly believe that each addition/modification in the game should be cosidered from the gameplay point of view first (what does it add to the game? does it throw the balance off?) and only then from the point of view of "realism" (whatever it is). People tend to forget that it's 'Just a Game' so often.

Aub

Puke · #6 January 31st, 2001, 08:35 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Aub:
'Just a Game'. 'Just a Game'.

People tend to forget that it's 'Just a Game' so often.

Aub

bah. games are how people choose to spend their time, and they embody a person's prefered Version of reality. take the game seriously if you will. but remember, everything else is 'just reality.' unless you are a serious freakin stoner, or some kind of enlightened monk, you cant very well choose your own reality. games, now, THAT you can choose.

BKrani · #7 January 31st, 2001, 10:03 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Puke:
mirror finish will reflect all kinds of lasers.. but good luck having any kind of stealth with that.

At the distances we're likely to be at, it's not likely that anyone will be using light as the medium of choice for detection. More likely would be mass detection or ... Actually, I have no idea. But i think it's unlikely to be only light. a mirror finish would be unlikely to effect detection after a few thousand kms or so.

quote:
I remember some star trek quote from the klingons... "i respect the federation, who else has the balls to paint their war ships WHITE and put RUNNING LIGHTS on them."

Oooh. I like it!

quote:
i digress. as far as FTL information travel, we are doing it today (in the lab anyway) with intertangled pairs of photons and funkey quantum mechanics that I dont even pretend to understand.

I'd heard something about this but frankley, I have no idea if it's just wind, or there's some substance to these claims.

quote:
FTL travel in the SEIV case involves neat fiction like space 'folding' or wormholes[/b]

My (limited) understanding of this type of travel is that it doesn't invalidate our current understanding of physics - it mereley bypasses it.

Cheers.