Fundamentals and Gamey

[geoschmo]

Players in all sorts of games will of course attempt to min/max as much as they can. But a few things will limit this from becoming some sort of "standard".

First of all, there are a lot of settings. Most everybody that understands how combat in SEIV works will agree that high aggressivness and defensivness are important for success, and poor numbers in either or both of these is a recipie for failure. But that is only two of 15 characteristics, and then you have all the advanced traits to choose from.

Even if everybody chose chose 125/125/berzerker, that doesn't exactly mean that race choices have suddenly become "one dimensional". That combination takes 3000 racial points. So there is plenty of room for diversity. In a 2000 point game you'd have to get 1000 points from somewhere? But where do you get them? Are your choices better than the other guys? In a 5000 point game you still have 2000 points to spend. But on what? Thats where the differences come in to play.

But chances are it's not going to get to that extreme. A wise player will try to throw some points in those categories, but does he need 125 in each? Would it be sufficent to get 110 in each and bezerker and spend those racial points in some other areas? Or maybe someone will take 120 in one and leave the other at 100?

Yes, a player that takes 75/75/merchant is going to have really hard time dealing with a 125/125/bezerker one on one. But would a 110/110/merchant? Could his concentration in economics make up the difference? Possibly, if he is a skilled player.

Also, keep in mind that a player that is 125/125/bezerker is going to have a big target on his chest in the early game. A smart player is constantly sizing up opponents in the game to decide who would be wise to leave around until the end. If you were faced with a choice between a 100/100 merchant and a 125/125/bezerker as neighbors, wouldn't you tend to team up with the merchant and go after the bezerker very early on? And you'd look for other allies to join in the fight. The same sort of principle is what limits the religious races from becoming totally dominant in the game.

I am not suprised someone has equated fundamentals with gaminess. But that's not specific to SEIV. Fundamentals get a bad rap in sports even. How many pro basketball players are great free throw shooters? How much respect do the kickers get in football? And how many baseball fans go to games to watch good defense? But those things are what all good teams do reasonably well, and all great teams do very well. They are what separates the teams with lots of talent from the teams that win championships.

Geschmo

[Taera]

geo, my major point is MIN/maxing. i know what you are saying, but then again - something that requies early kill, special strategies, banding together isnt too good. at all.

[couslee]

Banding together? I thought KOTH was one on one with no AIs.

Other PBW games are of course a different story, I guess.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by couslee:
Banding together? I thought KOTH was one on one with no AIs.

Other PBW games are of course a different story, I guess.

You are correct for KOTH. But Taera's concern seems to be that these min/max strategies will become widespread and used in all SEIV games.

Originally posted by Taera:
geo, my major point is MIN/maxing. i know what you are saying, but then again - something that requies early kill, special strategies, banding together isnt too good. at all.

Taera, every strategy requires something to counter it. And not every strategy is good against every other strategy. What exactly would you like to see happen? It is not clear from your comments.

Geoschmo

[Stone Mill]

I agree with Taera's frustration somewhat, as I have posted in the thread I started (KOTH: Attack of the clones). But I don't think it is cheating.

I don't think it is right to keep beating the wind out of newbies who get discouraged because their ships can't hit. But most players here are top notch and don't mind giving out strategy tips, and telling them why they are doing poorly.

I'd rather it weighed more heavily on the tactics and decisions you made during the game, and not so much on how you made your race. And it's a shame that an "average race" (without the fundamentals, so to speak) would get pounded 99% of the time against a 20/20/berserker.

Originally posted by Geo:

But would a 110/110/merchant? Could his concentration in economics make up the difference? Possibly, if he is a skilled player.

Hmm. I would qualify that "possibly" as very slim against a 20/20/berserker. The math is still extremely unfavorable in your example.

[javaslinger]

Taera,

I've been trying to test those settings you listed in the thread. However, you appear to have 2 too many of them. Which of them are redundant or am I missing something?

Thanks,

Ken

[PvK]

Sounds like I need to finish my balance mod.