OT: Alien Contact

[tesco samoa]

I think it is called tunnelling

[QuarianRex]

Interesting thread.

When looking at the bible there are many factors that must be taken into account. It is not just a matter of "I believe it, it's all true" vs. "it's unproven, it's all crap".

You have to look at who wrote it and who (mis)interpreted it. One of the reasons that there has been so much confusion has been due to the differences between jewish and hellenistic cultures. Jewish culture (and especially the language) is very emotionally based, non-rational. This leads to the use of a lot of metaphor and such to get across the proper tone and meaning of what is being said.

This contrasts greatly with the hellenistic view (held by the the greeks, rome, and especially the apostle Paul) which was extremely rational and litteral, very similar to the modern viewpoint of the westernized world. When rome adopted christianity they aquired a vast body of scripture that was steeped in metaphor, but was mistakenly accepted as literal.

This was further complicated by the confusion of translating the hebrew texts to greek and latin. Much was altereddue to this. For example, in hebrew 'messiah' means 'king in waiting' or 'he who would be king'. It had no connotations of divinity (and was why Jesus was from the line of David, it was the royal lineage). Unfortunately, in greek the word messiah translates into 'christos' (a.k.a. Christ) which has connotations of godhood (like hercules and other demigods).

Also, during the years of the early roman church, when the bible was being compiled into a single book there was much... editing... being done. Letters have been found from monks at the time (700-900 AD I can't quite remember the dates) discussing the necessity of destroying scriptural 'truths' since they were being used by satan and so were now 'false'. In other words, they were destroying/discrediting all scripture that did not fit with the official view of christianity.

Remember that modern christianity is a result of a committee decision. When emperor constantine decided to adopt the christian religion he brought all the various christian sects and cults together to figure out what they actually believed. Whether christ was a man, a god, a bit of both, of something else. It was at this time that the whole god-the-father/god-the-son/trinity thing got hammered out. And this was under the direction of constantine, a man who was the high priest of the sol invictus sun cult until his deathbed where he allowed himself to be baptized in case these crazy christians were onto something.

Oh, and the idea that God is a constant and unchanging omnipotent being cannot be supported. Take a look through the old testament, or just look at the Dr.Laura letter on the Canadian joke thread, and you'll see how large a change it was to 'love thy neighbor' and 'turn the other cheek'. That shows an evolution of God from guardian angel of abraham to storm/wargod of Israel to benefactor of jews and gentiles alike.

I could go on for days but this is a long post as it is. The point is that there is a lot more going on here than I think either of you realize.

Fyron:

I can appreciate your passion (zeal?) but try to argue within the paradigm. A paragraph of you telling a man he is wrong six different ways does not advance your argument at all, and does not disprove his argument either. Probe the inconsistencies within the bible itself to make your point as opposed to unilaterally declaring the whole thing to be bunk.

[ February 27, 2003, 21:28: Message edited by: QuarianRex ]

[Taera]

Tesco: thanks for reminding me. about half a year ago i also read an article about a research project... i think that was in the newspaper where i read it. The idea is that scientists were able (dont ask me how - physics isnt my major and it was a while ago) to accelerate particles to about 1.5 times light speed. I do not remember the details, what i do remember is that they encountered something that made them thing biological creatures wouldnt survive such an adventure using their current theories.

if you think about it, space age might not be that much far

an interesting topic indeed.

[Taera]

i agree on the point regarding war and peace. i was wrong yea happens, so what

[Fyron]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
You are both right. The Orient and Middle East did go through a phase similer to the European dark ages where technological advancment was stagnated due to political and religious pressures. Unfortunatly for them it came later, during the time when Europe was advancing again. The resulting technology gap allowed for the phase of European colonization that persisted into the industrial revolution. The East is only now really recovering from that.

And this is precisely why I always said "European Dark Age."

Originally posted by Aloofi:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Those Dark Ages only happened in Europe. The rest of the world went on developing new science without them. The Arabs and Chinese in particular continued to make advances during the European Dark Ages.

Yes, and the Bizantine Empire.
And the chinesse invented the most important tech advance ever: Firearms.
But it was the west the one that took that invention to the highest level.

---

The Chinese invented gunpowder, and used it mostly for fireworks. They made some odd things like gunpowder crossbows, but it was Europeans that invented cannons, and then firearms (muskets, rifles, that sort of thing), from the gunpowder they got from the Chinese.

The Byzantines were not Muslims, actually. Later on, the city was taken over by... the Ottomans? Or was it the Sarecans? I forget which, actually. But the Byzantines were Christians just like Rome in the later days before the Roman Empire fell. I forget the exact chain of events, but the (insert correct Muslim group) renamed the city when they took it over, and it was no longer Byzantine.

I could go on for days but this is a long post as it is. The point is that there is a lot more going on here than I think either of you realize.

I did hint at these sorts of problems many Posts ago when I mentioned translations of the Bible, but it wasn't a big part of the post.

When looking at the bible there are many factors that must be taken into account. It is not just a matter of "I believe it, it's all true" vs. "it's unproven, it's all crap".

That was not my argument. My argument was that the predictions in the Bible were (to use your terminology) crap.

Fyron:

I can appreciate your passion (zeal?) but try to argue within the paradigm. A paragraph of you telling a man he is wrong six different ways does not advance your argument at all, and does not disprove his argument either. Probe the inconsistencies within the bible itself to make your point as opposed to unilaterally declaring the whole thing to be bunk.

He was wrong the same way 6 times, so telling him that over and over again was necessary. He posted events supposedly predicted by the Bible, even though those parts of the Bible were written after those events took place (either days after in the contemporary, or centuries after). I don't own a Bible myself, so I can't very well find those example myself. What I can do is debunk the ones he gave.

Tesco: thanks for reminding me. about half a year ago i also read an article about a research project... i think that was in the newspaper where i read it. The idea is that scientists were able (dont ask me how - physics isnt my major and it was a while ago) to accelerate particles to about 1.5 times light speed. I do not remember the details, what i do remember is that they encountered something that made them thing biological creatures wouldnt survive such an adventure using their current theories.

The kind of particles in the experiment make all the difference in the world.

[ February 28, 2003, 00:41: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Baron Munchausen]

Imperator Fyron wrote:

The Chinese invented gunpowder, and used it mostly for fireworks. They made some odd things like gunpowder crossbows, but it was Europeans that invented cannons, and then firearms (muskets, rifles, that sort of thing), from the gunpowder they got from the Chinese.

The Byzantines were not Muslims, actually. Later on, the city was taken over by... the Ottomans? Or was it the Sarecans? I forget which, actually. But the Byzantines were Christians just like Rome in the later days before the Roman Empire fell. I forget the exact chain of events, but the (insert correct Muslim group) renamed the city when they took it over, and it was no longer Byzantine.

Actually, the events you are disccussing are connected. In 1453 Constantinople, which had been the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire since the 3rd century, was attacked and taken by the Ottoman Turks. The Last Caesar, Constantine XI, was killed in the fighting and so the Empire essentially was destroyed with its capital. The Ottoman Empire would Last until early in the 20th century, btw. It finally collapsed in WW I.

But anyway... the Ottoman ruler was a type we know well today. I don't know if they had a word like 'Fundamentalist' in that era but that is certainly what we would call him. When he took over Constantinople and renamed it Istanbul, he decided to burn all the 'heathen' books the city was so well stocked with. His reasoning was wonderfully concise. "If the books contain information not in the Koran then they must be wrong, if they contain information already in the Koran then they are superfluous." So anyway, the various Byzantine scholars had to run away to preserve their learning and often their own lives. Since the Ottoman Empire had been encroaching from the East for centuries, they went WEST to Italy.

Look at the date: 1453. This is not only the final end of the Roman Empire, it is also generally recognized as the beginning of the Renaissance. The Ottomans cut their own throats, as it were, by kicking off the Renaissance that would result in the rise of the Western European powers.

[ February 28, 2003, 01:42: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

[Fyron]

Ok... so I guess I only knew the very, very basics of that situation. Now I know more about it.