oooo aaron! - looks like moo3 is flopping... ;) do se5 faster?

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by raynor:
But you have to admit that there are some folks who bought SEIV thinking it was playable as the single player game. But it just isn't. All those features are great in multiplayer. But, as a single player game, SEIV has no features because it has no AI.

I dissagree 100% with your view that SE4 has no AI.

As I wrote many times here, I'm sure the AI still can be improved, right?

Also, I'm sure that the AI has problems playing in big galaxies, when have many potential places to attack/defend at the same time.
For example, is usual that the AI doesn't know what to do with a big fleet when need to defend 2 systems at the same time.
Usually the AI move the fleets in one direction, and at the next turn to the other direction... then in fact the fleet doesn't do anything!
And finally, I know that the AI doesn't care about many of the Diplomatic options, then, think that playing against the AI, SE4 is mostly a wargame, in the sense that the diplomatic options are less important (in MP is very different of course).

But, to say that SE4 has no AI... well, I'm 100% sure that you're wrong about it.

More than once, I wrote that playing in small galaxies against 3 or 4 TDM AIs (some of the good ones... and these races are mostly warlike) and high bonus (and with AI vs humans if I want more challenge), usually I LOST my games (even toda!).
Trying to be fair with myself, know that I'm not a bad SE4 player and I was playing the game from a long time... then, if still I can lose a game against the AI, think I have good reasons to say the AI is not so bad.

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I think that the people who believe that SE4 has no AI, is the people that like to play epic games with BIG galaxies (sometimes with 255 systems, and most the time not playing AI vs humans).
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Honestly would prefer that the SE4 AI could be more strong, or at least could cheat in the high levels like every 4x game (for example, in Moo and Moo2 was pretty obvious that the AI knew my unprotected planets to attack them). But can't to avoid recognize that SE4 has a very decent AI.

IMHO, a more than average AI if I compare this game with other 4x games

[raynor]

When you look at other space games, typically the AI is given less than a 100% bonus at the highest level of difficulty. (twice the production). In Space Empires IV, an easy game is played with that level of bonus. An average game is played with medium bonus. A hard game is played with high bonus (or 5x production.)

At that level, yes, I would agree it is extremely hard to beat the AI--especially in small galaxies.

But I would argue that the very definition of small, medium and high bonus is the strongest evidence of a poor AI.

Similarly, if the game has any AI at all, then it should win just as easily on a huge map as on a small map. Granted, it will take longer. The fact that you say that isn't so makes me think that its wins on smaller maps are more coincidence than anything else.

Let me hasten a couple of things. First, the TDM races are TONS better than the ones installed by default. I think it is a mistake to play the game without them. Second, the AI *is* getting better. I still remember when the AI built mostly research stations on a huge 150% mineral world.

But the AI never has and never will make effective use of half the cool features that are available to the human players in the multiplayer game. In that context, and if Gal Civ *does* turn out to have the AI they are promising, I may prefer a subset of features but an AI that uses all of them to an infinite array of features but an AI that can't use most of them.

[ March 11, 2003, 01:02: Message edited by: raynor ]

[Fyron]

If the game had no AI, you would not be able to play it SP. Saying that it has no AI is, as MB said, 100% wrong. Saying that it has bad AI, on the other hand, could be a valid point. But saying that it has no AI is wholely wrong.

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by raynor:
The fact that you say that isn't so makes me think that its wins on smaller maps are more coincidence than anything else.

Coincidence? Really?

Seems obvious to me that you never have played games as I suggested, and must say that these games are really funny to me!

I have played many MP games and in those games, mostly I had the luck to win (for example, I was second in the first Survivor tournament done by GEO). Then, is hard to believe to me, that I lost aprox 50% of my games against the AI by coincidence!!!
But maybe my luck only works with humans! Or
maybe the game settings that I use against the AI are really hard.

I was not saying that SE4 is Deep Blue. But I'm sure that with the right game settings, a player can have a good challenge.

I don't claim to have the universal truth, and understand that you could think different than me, ok?

[raynor]

Sorry. I didn't mean to imply that I didn't believe that you have been beat by the AI. At high bonus on a small map, the game is very difficult to beat. With a 5x production bonus and a computer opponent one system away, you are in for a pretty miserable time if not impossible time.

What I meant by coincidence is that you aren't losing because the AI is trying to beat you. Instead, you are losing because you got in the way of its random movement of ships. If the AI is going to send ships to attack two or three nearby systems every so often, then the AI isn't really going to present much of a challenge on a map with hundreds of systems. But on a map with only a few dozen systems, the 2x, 3x or 5x production is going to wipe you out long before you can acquire enough planets to bring your superior strategy to play.

[Lemmy]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
If the game had no AI, you would not be able to play it SP. Saying that it has no AI is, as MB said, 100% wrong. Saying that it has bad AI, on the other hand, could be a valid point. But saying that it has no AI is wholely wrong.

Liar
If it had no AI you could still play SP, but it would really be SP, just you and the universe .

It's true that SE4 has an AI...but you'd be amazed at what dumb things (i'm not saying SE4 AI is dumb, it's pretty good for a complex game as Se4) can officially be labelled as Artificial Intelligence

[ March 11, 2003, 10:52: Message edited by: Lemmy ]

[Master Belisarius]

Originally posted by raynor:
Sorry. I didn't mean to imply that I didn't believe that you have been beat by the AI. At high bonus on a small map, the game is very difficult to beat. With a 5x production bonus and a computer opponent one system away, you are in for a pretty miserable time if not impossible time.

What I meant by coincidence is that you aren't losing because the AI is trying to beat you. Instead, you are losing because you got in the way of its random movement of ships. If the AI is going to send ships to attack two or three nearby systems every so often, then the AI isn't really going to present much of a challenge on a map with hundreds of systems. But on a map with only a few dozen systems, the 2x, 3x or 5x production is going to wipe you out long before you can acquire enough planets to bring your superior strategy to play.

Ok. I understand your view.
But then, what game have a good AI for you??
I can't remember any game that I could think: "Hey, I'm really playing against an smart opponent!" (always talking about to play against the AI of course!).
I hope GC would be. I hope SEV or maybe Stars Supernova would be released some day... but honestly can't remember a good AI with your request (It mean to me: act as an intelligent entity).