[OT] Plato's Pub and Philosophical Society

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
Actually, no. 'Barbarian' comes from the Greeks immitating what the sound of foreigner's language sounded like to them.

I stand corrected. There are sources that say it derrives from "bearded" but this seems only to be a rumor.

A link:
http://www.takeourword.com/Issue010.html

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
Alpha Kodiak: Kudos for recognizing that God cannot be either proven or disproven. Most people these days think that if the logic diagram cannot be closed then the 'issue' to be proven is automatically disproven. Deh... so much for modern 'education'...

It is a good thing that I have never once made a claim or argument as to whether the Christian God exists or not, isn't it? If you can not prove whether something exists or not, continuing to claim that it exists is just as large a logical fallacy as continuing to claim that it does not exist.

I think I need to repost this, because it keeps being ignored, and it is much more important than these silly arguments over the alleged prophesizing powers of the Bible:

All of these arguments are nice, but they detract from the heart of the matter. None of you yet has successfully answered my question as to why you accept Christian mythology (please read back a few Posts to see what mythology is if you do not know the real definition) and reject all other mythology as being false. Why is Christianity so special as to be right, and everything else is wrong?

[ March 11, 2003, 17:30: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[QuarianRex]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Myths are always at least loosely based off of reality. The Bible is (whether you wish to accept it or not) a myth. After all, mythology is a collection of stories that define the moral values of a culture that are not meant to be literal. The Bible is a set of stories that Christians and Jews use to define their sense of morality. Myths are most often not (well, never) literal representations of fact; that is not their purpose.[/QB]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Ok... you do not know what the term mythology means. It has absolutely nothing to do with fairy tales. I guess I will have to repeat myself: mythology is a collection of tales that define the moral values of a culture. Hmm... the Bible is a collection of tales, which Jews and Christians essentially get their moral values from. Therefore, Bible = mythology.

The Odyssey was passed down as historical record. Does that make everything it says historical fact? No way. Most religious texts/tales were passed down as historical record. The Bible is nothing special in this regard. It has parts based on reality, and parts that are fictional, dramatized for effect.

I am quite aware of the definition of mythology. Myths do not necessarily define the morals of a culture. They explain cultural practices and natural phenomena. Morality may or may not be associated with them. You seem to be saying that the only moral basis of a culture (particularly an ancient one) is myth. This isn't so. The morality dictated within the bible was shaped by the conditions and leaders at the time. The leaders themselves were guided by religious beliefs though and perhaps that is something that you are not comfortable with.

Comparing the bible to the odyssey is just an attempt to minimise the bible, nothing more. The odyssey is a literary construct showing the heroes journey through a supernatural landscape that required the heroes to stab cyclops in the eye and resist the unnatural lures of the siren (IIRC). The more fantastical elements of the bible are, for the most part, limited to visions by various prophets and environmental effects attributed to god. Both of which are well within the realms of modern comprehension and acceptance.

Also, the bible (again, for the most part) is meant to be taken literally, and so does not really qualify as myth. Why did I have to qualify that? Because you have Take various scriptures in context. If prophet X tells his people about his vision it means that prophet X has literally had a vision and is acting upon it. It does not mean that the contents of said vision were walking around in biblical times.

Your implication that the bible is merely a collection of 'tales' minimizes any historical import that it may have and tries to force it into a Category of literature to which it does not belong.

[Alpha Kodiak]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I think I need to repost this, because it keeps being ignored, and it is much more important than these silly arguments over the alleged prophesizing powers of the Bible:

All of these arguments are nice, but they detract from the heart of the matter. None of you yet has successfully answered my question as to why you accept Christian mythology (please read back a few Posts to see what mythology is if you do not know the real definition) and reject all other mythology as being false. Why is Christianity so special as to be right, and everything else is wrong?

Ok, you asked for it....

Actually, what I am about to post is not some grand proof of Christian theology, and will probably not convince you of anything much, but it is the story of how I came to be where I am in my spiritual walk.

When I was entering fifth grade, far more years ago than I would like to admit, and through a variety of circumstances that are somewhat complex, I wound up in a private Christian school. As my parents were not particularly active in their faith, it was rather odd for me to be there, but, as I said the circumstances were somewhat complex.

As I went through my first year there, I noticed a difference in the way that my teachers cared for the students that did not come through in other schools. This is not to say that the teachers in other schools did not care for the students, but for me at that time, there was something powerful in the love that they showed. Being a Christian school, there were classes in the Bible, and I started learning the basics of Old and New Testament theology at that time. I was particularly struck by the passages speaking of man's sinfullness and God's active seeking to restore the relationship between man and Himself.

I knew even then that while I tried to be good, I would not always succeed. Fibs (lies) to cover silly pranks came all too easily. It was easy to show favoritism to popular kids, or to grow angry if I did not get my way. At any rate, it became clear to me that I was not able to meet God's standards on my own.

It was then that I turned to the promises of scripture such as:

"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God which is through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth to be a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." Romans 3:21-26

I no longer had to be good in my own strength! All fall short of God's glory, but He has provided a way of escape:

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

Ok, I can hear the protests already - "You can't use the Bible to prove itself." I know that, that's why I said earlier that this is a description of how I got to where I am now. A better question is to ask me, why do I still hold to this belief, and why do I have confidence that it is true?

Christianity in its pure form is not a religion, in that it is not man striving to do what he has to do to reach God. It is God reaching down in love to sinful man and restoring a relationship that was lost when man rebelled against Him. I have that relationship, and I know that it is real. I cannot prove it to you, but for me to deny it would be like me denying that I am married to my wife. He has been with me through times of joy and times of sadness, times of trouble when I had no strength to go on alone.

You also ask about those who believe differently, I have already said that I do not make my own judgment of them. I believe that God loves all people, and I believe that He wants to redeem all people. I also know that all are sinful and cannot make it to God on their own. How God deals with people who have not been exposed to Christianity, or those who believe other faiths is up to Him. I am responsible for how I respond to what has been revealed to me.

You are really pulling out the long Posts from me, something that is unusual for me. But this is actually the short form of why I believe what I believe. I could have written much more, and still offered no more proof. I have not posted this before because I know that it will not satisfy you, but you have asked for it repeatedly, so there it is.

[Fyron]

QuarianRex :

I am quite aware of the definition of mythology. Myths do not necessarily define the morals of a culture. They explain cultural practices and natural phenomena. Morality may or may not be associated with them.

A mythology does indeed relate the moral values of a culture.

You seem to be saying that the only moral basis of a culture (particularly an ancient one) is myth.

That is not at all what I said. In fact, that does not even follow from what I said in any way.

The leaders themselves were guided by religious beliefs though and perhaps that is something that you are not comfortable with.

I fail to see the purpose of saying such a thing. All religious mythology was written by religious people. Care to enumerate?

Comparing the bible to the odyssey is just an attempt to minimise the bible, nothing more.

I was doing no such thing. You are again grossly misinterpreting my statements. If you want to compare the Odyssey to something, it would be one of the books of the Bible, not the entire Bible.

The odyssey is a literary construct showing the heroes journey through a supernatural landscape that required the heroes to stab cyclops in the eye and resist the unnatural lures of the siren (IIRC). The more fantastical elements of the bible are, for the most part, limited to visions by various prophets and environmental effects attributed to god.

Oh really? Samson? David and Goliath? Jonah and the whale? These are fantastical tales just the same as those in the Odyssey, and they serve the exact same role within each culture.

The Odyssey is, for the most part, visions by various ancient Greek prophets and environmental effects attributed to the Greek gods. If you would stop being so provincial, you could see that both the Odyssey and the books of the Bible serve the exact same role for these different cultures. The Odyssey (and many other Greek myths) taught the Greek value system to the Greeks. The Bible teaches the Christian value system to Christians.

Both of which are well within the realms of modern comprehension and acceptance.

...and within the realms of ancient comprehension and acceptance. What is your point?

Also, the bible (again, for the most part) is meant to be taken literally, and so does not really qualify as myth.

All religious writings/tales are meant to be taken just as literally as the Bible. Maybe you need to learn more about other cultures. Well... the Bible was written in a language steeped with metaphor, and was not actually meant to be taken wholely literally. That is just an error made by people that speak a literal language.

Your implication that the bible is merely a collection of 'tales' minimizes any historical import that it may have and tries to force it into a Category of literature to which it does not belong.

I would greatly appreciate it if you started reading what I posted, and not what you want me to have posted.

The Bible is indeed a collection of stories. So what? That is the entire purpose of the Bible: to be a collection of stories to help guide you to develop "proper" morals. That does not do anything to minimize any impact. In fact, that is the impact it has had. I have not forced it into any literary categories where it does not belong; I have merely stated the correct Category where it belongs, religious mythological works.

Basically, your error here is a common one of arrogance. Because you believe the Bible, and not other religious works, you refuse to see that the Bible is mythology, just like the Odyssey, the Koran, etc. You have wrongly associated the term with meaning falsehood, because you believe that other religious works are false. You have attempted to belittle them and isolate the work you believe from them to make it unique. Irregardless of any arguments about the veracity of the Bible, it is most certainly not in a separate Category as other religious works; they are all mythology. The term mythology has nothing to do with falsehood.

Alpha Kodiak:

Actually, what I am about to post is not some grand proof of Christian theology, and will probably not convince you of anything much, but it is the story of how I came to be where I am in my spiritual walk.

This is fine. In fact, this is infinitely better than ignoring my query, which a lot of people have done so far.

So essentially, you believe what you believe because that is what you were taught to believe. That might work for you, but not for me. I could go into a long schpiel about how wrong that is, but it would definitely fail to convince you of anything, so I won't at this juncture. That, and I must leave now for hours of riveting classes.

[ March 11, 2003, 20:21: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[ZeroAdunn]

So essentially, you believe what you believe because that is what you were taught to believe. That might work for you, but not for me. I could go into a long schpiel about how wrong that is, but it would definitely fail to convince you of anything, so I won't at this juncture. That, and I must leave now for hours of riveting classes.

You do realize that the vast majority of what everybody believes they believe because it is what they were taught to believe? And this goes beyond religion, for the most part, everything that we believe that we do not believe because we witnessed it, we are taught to believe.

[Alpha Kodiak]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Alpha Kodiak:

quote:

---

Actually, what I am about to post is not some grand proof of Christian theology, and will probably not convince you of anything much, but it is the story of how I came to be where I am in my spiritual walk.

This is fine. In fact, this is infinitely better than ignoring my query, which a lot of people have done so far.

So essentially, you believe what you believe because that is what you were taught to believe. That might work for you, but not for me. I could go into a long schpiel about how wrong that is, but it would definitely fail to convince you of anything, so I won't at this juncture. That, and I must leave now for hours of riveting classes.

---

I would only modify that slightly: I believe what I was taught to believe, verified by personal experience. Think of it this way, I doubt that you invented the scientific method, rather someone taught it to you. It has served you well (as it has served me well, it is not an alien concept to me, either) and so you trust it for future use.

I have trusted in the Lord, and He has proven Himself faithful to me, so I continue to trust Him.