[OT] Plato's Pub and Philosophical Society

[Fyron]

Rags, you completely missed my point. And, your belief that you actually have free choice is an illusion (as illustrated prior).

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Rags, you completely missed my point. And, your belief that you actually have free choice is an illusion (as illustrated prior).

No, I didn't miss your point. And it's not an illusion that I have free choice.
Food for example: I choose what kind I want to eat once I become hungry. It has nothing to do with what happened in the past or events that just took place. I have foods I like thus I choose what kind I want to eat at any given time.

I choose who I hang out with. This also has nothing to do with events in the past. I meet someone and if I like them I'll hang out with them. If I don't, that's my choice to make.

Granted there are some choices that are decided by what events took place days prior to it but not all. There are still choices in our lives that are decided by us, not by events that took place that will help make the decision.

[ March 20, 2003, 00:52: Message edited by: Ragnarok ]

[Jack Simth]

As there is no outside of the universe,

On what basis do you make this claim? There have been hypothesis in the past that there are other universes - the problem being that they can neither be proved nor disproved, and thus they haven't recieved much serious attention.

I did not postulate that.

I didn't say you had. It appears you missed the qualifier "if" . . . and then you ignored the rest of the statement about quantum mechanics, which does leave room for non-determinism (one way of saying free will).

However, if you don't postulate that, then you leave the option of an independent soul open, which would really throw determinism out the window.

[Jack Simth]

... a perfectly free-willed decision devoid of any other factors ...

That is a ridiculously tight-fisted statement, Fyron. "... a perfectly free-willed decision devoid of any other factors ..."(emhasis added) I don't think anyone who claims sanity claims to be totally unaffected by events, while it seems you would only be satisfied by such a response. This strikes me as unrealistic of you.

Edit: And just to beat you to the punch, it is a very big jump to go from affected by to determined solely by.

[ March 20, 2003, 01:15: Message edited by: Jack Simth ]

[Fyron]

I was just trying to start a philosophical debate, but I can see that has failed miserably. Maybe I should just stop looking at this thread altogether.

[Suicide Junkie]

And it's not an illusion that I have free choice.

Ah, but how can you tell for sure? Or within a reasonable doubt?

[Jack Simth]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I was just trying to start a philosophical debate, but I can see that has failed miserably. Maybe I should just stop looking at this thread altogether.

That is the fastest I have seen you back off of a position.