[OT] Plato's Pub and Philosophical Society

[dogscoff]

It's a valid point S_J, except that I don't know of any theistic belief systems where that happens. They all seem to have God(s) mucking about in human affairs one way or another.

But yeah, it would make quite a cool religion. Maybe I'll start me a cult...

[QuarianRex]

Looking at free-will vs. the illusion of free-will, can anyone tell me the difference? Is there a practical difference between free-will and the illusion?

When I say "illusion of free-will" I mean that in the sense of determinism, not in the "I am autnomous free agent, unaffected by my environment", obviously false, sense.

If our fates are predetermined, why are we allowed to see things otherwise? If we see things as a product of free-will how is that different from such things being a product of free-will. I it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

[Suicide Junkie]

I imagine it is very much the same as the aged creation type stuff we saw come up a while ago in this very thread.

No way to tell for sure, and in this case the logical answer is to live your life as if you have free will.
If you don't and you think you do, no big deal, it was bound to happen.
If you do and think you don't, well then you've got a problem.

Doesn't stop us from posting interesting theories, though, and its a much friendlier topic

[Fyron]

I think some people are confusing determinism with predestination. The two are wholely unrelated concepts.

[Krsqk]

Determinism is a materialistic view that says everything in the universe is the direct result of the (admittedly complex) interactions of matter, energy, and natural forces. Predestination is the theological view that one's eternal state was decided before creation and is unalterable.

[QuarianRex]

Originally posted by Krsqk:
Determinism is a materialistic view that says everything in the universe is the direct result of the (admittedly complex) interactions of matter, energy, and natural forces. Predestination is the theological view that one's eternal state was decided before creation and is unalterable.

For our purposes there is no real difference or the distinction just doesn't apply. Determinism says that our actions are preordained by the laws of the universe, while predesedination maintains that our actions are set by god (at least one interpretation does anyway). You say pot-AY-to, I say pot-AH-to. The only real difference is that determinism stops at death (on the personal level, that is) while predestination keeps dictating your afterlife. If predestination is taken to mean that only the afterlife is set then there is no real comparisson at all.

[Chronon]

My dictionary has the following:

Determinism: The philosophical doctrine that every event, act, and decision is the inevitable consequence of antecedents, such as physical, psychological, or environmental conditions, that are independent of the human will.

Predestinate: 1. To destine or determine in advance: foreordain.

So, there is a philosophical difference between the two: predestination happened before the event, and determinism happens at the time of the event. And, theologically speaking, at least according to Calvinism, the only thing predestined is one's salvation. One's decisions in this life may reflect one's grace (or not ), but they are still one's own decisions.

In any case, I'm still not buying either one. No chemical process compelled me to write this post denouncing my enslavement to chemical processes!