[OT] Military (non-political) discussion of Iraq war

Loser · #1 April 12th, 2003, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TerranC:
We'll need them, but I don't think we'll be building new ones, IMHO. I think the Abrams will go the way of the Stratofortress; Useful when you need it, but at other times, just a liability.[/QB]

The B-52, the Battleship, SR-71 (you know they still use them, I mean come on, they're just to cool to scrap), and soon the tank?

I have trouble imagining a world where tanks are mothballed and only brought out for The Next Big War...

Anyone see it a different way?

Alpha Kodiak · #2 April 12th, 2003, 01:08 AM

I wouldn't want to take a Bradley against a determined tank-armed enemy that knew how to use their tanks. For that matter, it takes a much lighter infantry weapon to take out a Bradley than an M1. I would guess that an RPG could substantially damage a Bradley, while it would be unlikely that it could do much to an M1. Given all of that, I suspect MBTs will be around for a while yet.

Thermodyne · #3 April 12th, 2003, 01:16 AM

We could force law and order on them, or we could let them ask for some law and order. I would think that letting them ask is the best course of action.

Baron Munchausen · #4 April 12th, 2003, 02:45 AM

Bah... 'the tank is obsolete' is one of those cyclic idiocies that military doctrines go through. The gun was 'obsolete' on aircraft in the 1960s. Until US pilots got into some dogfights in Vietnam and discovered that missiles were not 100 percent effective.

Big surprise there. They had to put external gun pods on the F4 Phantom to let our pilots keep fighting when the enemy closed in. At least they did learn from their mistake and put guns in the original design for the next generation, the F-14/F-15/F-16 series. Those simple (and cheap!) shaped charge weapons did make the battlefield dangerous for tanks for a while, but they came up with counter-measures in the next generation of armor. Despite this there was some resistance to building the M1 Abrams on the grounds that tanks were 'obsolete'. Well, OUR tanks sure didn't look 'obsolete' in Desert Storm...

The tank will not be obsolete until, as already said, we have the SciFi type of tank that walks.

The real observation to be made here is that the 'highly irregular warfare' of the future, where terrorists do their best to attack where our defenses ain't will not be won with heavy weapons. I suspect that the very dangerous merging of police and military that we've already begun to see will continue in the attempt to cope with this problem. We'll have 'SWAT' teams getting more and more heavy-duty and high-tech, and police legal powers getting more and more crazy - as already demonstrate with the 'Patriot' and 'Patriot II' acts.

Alpha Kodiak · #5 April 12th, 2003, 10:54 PM

I don't know if the walking tank concept is such a great idea, even if the artwork looks cool. The best design of a tank is something that is low to the ground and can dig itself in so that it is hard to hit. The walker concept would allow for movement across tougher terrain, but its upright stance would make it pretty easy to hit. Even if they are extremely well armored, something will be developed to penetrate their armor. I would want to be in something that is both well armored and hard to hit, rather than in something that stands out like a sore thumb.

Baron Munchausen · #6 April 12th, 2003, 11:37 PM

Which only emphasizes the point. Maybe the 'standard' tank will never be completely obsolete. Maybe it will only be complemented by 'battle suits' or 'mechs' or whatever.

klausD · #7 April 13th, 2003, 02:05 AM

Quote:

The real observation to be made here is that the 'highly irregular warfare' of the future, where terrorists do their best to attack where our defenses ain't will not be won with heavy weapons. I suspect that the very dangerous merging of police and military that we've already begun to see will continue in the attempt to cope with this problem. We'll have 'SWAT' teams getting more and more heavy-duty and high-tech, and police legal powers getting more and more crazy - as already demonstrate with the 'Patriot' and 'Patriot II' acts.

Well I think this is one of "military" actionswe will see in the future. But it depends on the type of armies which are battling against another. If one army is technologically very superior (like the US army is now) then the other only can do guerilla and media warfare to have a minimum chance of surviving (not winning) The alternative to this "illegal" kind of warfare is only giving up.

But we will see a more conventional warfare (like a high tech WW2 war) if the armies are equal in technology. This could be if china closes up to the US in financial and technological capacity the next 3 or 4 decades.

It is IMO wrong to assume the every war in future will be one of a unconventional mixture of police and military action like it is now in Iraque and several other conflict regions.

In history there has been often a mixture like the above. (romans peace keeping activities in germania and so on) The only difference is that today the media is bringing the cruel war to everybodies home TV and by doing this making the "home front" somewhat discomfortable and angry.

bye
Klaus

sorry for my bad english