A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron

[Fyron]

Again, that is a hardcode change, not a simple balance change. The point that balance changes are few and far between is still quite valid.

[geoschmo]

Most games get balance changes? I don't play many other games, so I will have to accept this contention at face value Fyron. But most games do not allow the players to make simple data file changes and tweak the balance to their hearts content the way that SEIV does. So one could make a valid point that Malfador has made all of the balance changes you want, by giving you the tools to do it yourself.

Claiming that most people don't play mods is completely irrelevant. Most people that buy a game don't even bother to download patches for them. What does that prove?

The simple fact is that balance is subjective. No, Malfador doesn't have to make everyone happy. It wouldn't even be possible even if they wanted to. But if the result of a change is a just a different group of unhappy people what's the point of the change? Especially when you consider anyone that is unhappy with it in the first place can change it themselves.

But I will tell you again what I have told you before. A lot of things could be changed and would be improvments, I will totally agree with that. But if you have something like that you'd like to see changed, whining about it in the forum isn't going to help. Send the suggestion to Malfador. Not just a "balance this" gripe, but actually do the change yourself and do the real work and playtest it. Send your playtest results to Malfador along with comments from the players involved in your playtests, if there are any.

Make a clear and convinvcing case for a "simple" change and I would be suprised if it didn't get done. Especially if you can hand him the text and all he has to do is proofread it and paste it into the data files. It worked for you before on the formations problem didn't it?

Of course whining is a lot easier.

Geoschmo

[ July 21, 2003, 20:52: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Erax]

Malfador doesn't have to make everyone happy. It wouldn't even be possible even if they wanted to. But if the result of a change is a just a different group of unhappy people what's the point of the change?

Like we say down here, "You can't please the Greeks and the Trojans."

[Phoenix-D]

"Again, that is a hardcode change, not a simple balance change. The point that balance changes are few and far between is still quite valid. "

No, it was a balance change that required hardcode doing. Same with the ID vs shields; I doubt it was a bug that made it skip shields, since other "kills x" weapons do.

[Fyron]

Most games get balance changes?

Please reread my statement. Games that get frequent patches (as SE4 does) generally get frequent balance fixes.

whining about it in the forum isn't going to help.

I have seen no whining here Geo.

P-D:
AS vs MC was a bug. It was not supposed to convert ships with a damaged MC, but it did.

From History.txt:

2. Fixed - "Crew ConVersion" damage type will fail against a ship with a Master Computer (regardless if that component is damaged or not). It does not matter if there is a Bridge on the ship.

Note how it says "Fixed" and not "Changed"? This shows that it was meant to fail against ships with a damaged MC.

7. Changed - Engine Damaging Weapons no longer skip shields.

That one was a balance change. So that makes 4. Still not very many.

[ July 21, 2003, 22:21: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Gozra]

SEIV is as blanced a game as any. The ablity to modifify the starting set up allowes players of varying ablity to play fairly equally. (See set up page on PBW for Cluster command) There are way to many other variables in SEIV to say that this or that racial trait allows someone to win more often. We have no stastical data to base these statements on. I do have a gut feeling that this game from the outset has more balance than most games.

[spoon]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Most games get balance changes? I don't play many other games, so I will have to accept this contention at face value Fyron.

They don't. Most GOOD multiplayer games, however, do receive additional balancing tweaks after release.

Claiming that most people don't play mods is completely irrelevant.

If he was talking about single player games, yes, it would be. But making a mod has an impact on the number of people you can play against, so it is an important consideration. Decreasing the pool of available players can lead to stagnation.

Most people that buy a game don't even bother to download patches for them. What does that prove?

That most people aren't hardcore gamers.

The simple fact is that balance is subjective.

Not strictly true, I think it is quantifiable to a point. However, MM doesn't track multiplayer games so it doesn't collect the data it would need make an informed decision on balance tweaks. However, some of the balance issues are big enough that I'm surprised they haven't been addressed.

No, Malfador doesn't have to make everyone happy. It wouldn't even be possible even if they wanted to. But if the result of a change is a just a different group of unhappy people what's the point of the change?

Art for art's sake, maybe? The game isn't perfectly balanced, though , so a lot of the choices that you appear to have aren't valid (in a competitive game). Making more choices available makes the game more robust, and therefore "better". If the happiness quotient stays the same, as you argue, then why not strive for perfection?