Rules-Conduct-Playing to win-and Gamy moves?

[Thermodyne]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Actually the lack of reply means the problem is solved- the recipint of the surrender is gifting me the planets and such. No harm no foul.

Its generally considered bad form to surrender to someone you're not actively fighting, and IIRC he had tried to make peace so that would count (or did in his mind anyway)

New request for SE5, though: surrender really should have a "no" response.

I assumed that is what would occurred, and have no problem with it. And for the record, it was his taking of a stack of planets that pushed the population over the edge. To attack and take what you want and then say OK I'm done will in no way end a war. He got what he needed at my expence, as was his right. Just as it is my right to say that we were still at war. But there is still the issue of the content of the post that was made upon halting the game. Just working out the issue does not address this. And the reply that I was in “no position to make demands” as regards to my reputation was very foolish. I am still of the opinion that no rule was broken and that the game owner acted in very poor judgment and executed his responsibilities in a reprehensible, lazy fashion. I would have assumed that I would have gotten an email enquiry before he posted. “Surrendered to an empire that was not attacking him”, which was not true. He had attacked and done the harm that broke the camels back. And the editorial “I feel that this would not be fair to continue on” indicates that he decided that it was a cheat with out so much as asking me what was on my mind. I have no idea of what was occurring behind the curtain, but it stinks of “out of game” management.

Also, I think it would be good to discuss gamy moves, and see how people feel about them.

[Fyron]

Originally posted by PvK:
Again it depends on the players. Some players hate to see anything "wrong" happen. Other hate to re-do turns and see events "un-done".

PvK

I hate having to re-do turns too, you know. But, sometimes it is necessary.

[Thermodyne]

Originally posted by Erax:
Thermo, let me see if I understood this. You were being attacked by two enemies and you surrendered to one of them. The guy you surrendered to doesn't want to allow it. Is that it ?

I would understand it if the other guy protested your surrender, but the one you surrendered TO ? How does your move harm him ? If he doesn't want to micromanage your planets he can just let them rot and he won't be any worse off than if you had surrendered to your other enemy.

So unless this is a 'role-playing' kind of game, I see no reason why he should be upset with you.

On a more general level, 'gamy' moves cannot usually be prevented. They are a flaw in the system, no one should be blamed individually for them (even if they spoil an entire game). The players and the GM should take their lumps, wise up and make new rules for their next games. Rolling back a turn, in any kind of game, will usually cause a LOT more resentment than it cures.

Yes, but with conditions. He had taken what he wanted (captured a planet) without declaring war. I then declared the war, as it already existed by action. Don’t get me wrong. Any player in the game could have killed me any time they wanted. My main ***** is that a judgment was made to hold the game and a post was made in the game header that was a) not accurate and b) indicated that what I did was a breech of rule or game conduct bad enough to halt the game. There was no rule, and I am unaware of it being a breech, such as surrendering to an ally. And when I protested loudly by email, I was quite frankly, blown off. The post remains and my Last email is unanswered. So here we are.

[Phoenix-D]

Fyron, you'd hate it even more in this game. I'm the fourth place player; I have two ringworlds, a sphereworld, and more in various stages of construction, over 5 million resources being spent per turn, and over 700 construction ques..

[PvK]

Thermo, personally, I would say your move was fine as long as there was no written house rule against it. Is it possible you missed an earlier discussion of this rule by joining late?

In any case, however, the game master has the final say on what is done. It sounds like he has strong feelings about surrender which aren't uncommon. They should be spelled out however, and I agree that it would be a lot more fair to you to discuss it with you first. Now that you know it's an issue to some players, it'd be good to check with game masters before surrendering, even if I wouldn't say you were clearly responsible to do so.

Basically it's a misunderstanding and lack of communication. I don't think anyone should need to have bad feelings about it.

PvK

[Erax]

That is not true. In fact, the exact opposite is true. Rolling back the turn to undo the wrong actions causes less resentment than allowing them to stand.

I guess our experiences in this regard are different. Mine have always followed this pattern : one player complains -> everyone else is silent -> GM rolls the turn back -> three players who had been silent now begin complaining about the turn being re-done. The situation proceeds to worsen from then on.

Thermo : I feel this was a flaw of the system; there were unspoken rules which you did not know about. Next time they should be spoken or better yet written down. No one should feel guilty or blame someone else for what happened. Forgive the person who accused you and move on. Easy for me to say because it isn't my reputation, I know, but that is the advice I have to give.

[ July 11, 2003, 22:48: Message edited by: Erax ]

[primitive]

As the player who got the surrender and requested the roll back i guess I have to make some comments.

I do roleplay my race. The Taolosian fight for honor and sport and I try to do everything in character. During the whole "war" I took 1 planet and did not destroy a single ship. There are no way the Taolosians would have accepted a surrender after such a minor skirmish. I do want to win the game, but I also want to do it a manner I can be proud of. You dropping 10+ systems in my lap would make the game less enjoyable for me, so I asked the remaining players if we could roll back the turn and mark your empire dead instead.

I would urge anybody leaving a game to consider how their leaving could make the game fairer and more fun for the remaining players, not the opposite.