SE4 Stock Balance Mod

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by spoon:

quote:

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Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
[QB]Double Ugh! Why does everyone keep saying to make torpedoes better with a to-hit modifier! This makes no sense!
[QB]

Everyone knows that a space torpedo exlodes when it gets near its target, and it's the bLast radius that translates into its bonus to hit

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Right. And since beam weapons don't really go the speed of light, at least they don't in every show I have ever seen, they aren't a sure thing to hit. A torpedo is too fast to be effectively evaded, but it can have some homing ability that a beam cannot so can make up for mistakes made in aiming, which a beam cannot.

We can make up anything we want to and make it sound plausible.

Geoschmo

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
And what is the prereq for when an item is agreed upon.

100 % or 75% of the posters agree to the change.

Then would we weight our items and agree on the weight as well ??

I think a good balance mod is going to be one which very few people like everything, but in which most people can still tolerate the changes they don't like. Balance will require compromise. So it would come down more to weight I think.

Geoschmo

[spoon]

Originally posted by PvK:
Well depending on how good you make the higher levels, even as a human I might still deploy MB range 6 rather than the range 8 Versions in late-game, because unless I have racial skill superiority, often it's much easier to hit at range 6 than at range 8. This will be particularly true for AI's which aren't maxed out on Aggressiveness, which describes pretty much all of the stock AI races. For them, range 8 weapons could be a disadvantage, at least if they use Max Weapons Range strategy.

You could always give them a small bonus to hit to compensate, like 10%.

Again though, you are suggesting taking a way a good existing weapon and making more like another existing weapon. If you want another range-8 weapon, I'd rather you add one than change/take away a good range 6 weapon.

It's an ok weapon, but I never use it because it is beat out easily by PPBs mid game and APBs late game. There is never a time I wish I had MBs. DUCs are fine until PPBs come Online.

Of course, if PPBs are nerfed more than a little, then MBs (as is) become more viable as a mid-game weapon.

quote:

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Keeping them valid in the late-game seems important, but if the PPB isn't nerfed more than a little, they Meson BLasters remain not-so-good for the mid game, either.

MB are valid in late game. Making lower-research weapons competitive with higher-research weapons, though, would mainly make the tech tree shallower and more bland, it seems to me.

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It would still be less effective than the APB for Point Blank strategies, and would only be worthwhile for people pursuing a Max Range strategy. I don't think it diminishes the tech tree at all.

If you give MB range 8, they wouldn't be so much an alternative to APB as the nearly the same thing as APB. If you're interested in that slight variation, I suggest adding a weapon, but not taking away the existing MB.

I'd be fine with that too - which weapon do you suggest?

Unmodded MB are also one of the best weapons in the game, even in late-game. It's the APB that stands out as being the most powerful at level XII. Tweaking the MB to be more powerful would still leave all the other weapons in the game far behind the APB. If you're focusing on APB vs. MB in late-game, it seems to me the thing to change would be to reduce the appeal of APB somehow.

I was sort of using the APB as the "standard" to base balancing on. I like that it is the best general weapon, given how much research it takes to get to level 12. However, I still think other weapons should be viable in the late game, which means giving each of them a niche.

[Suicide Junkie]

and finally advanced storage racial trait should be 1500

Rather than increase the cost, why not decrease the effect? That way, no AI modifications are required.

Weapons that have a reload of 1 should have the least amount of damage and range

and as the reload time increases so should the base range and / or damage

So max range for a 1 reload would be within the 1 to 3 range ( exception would be the tractor/ repulser )
2 reload would be the 2 to 5 range
3 reload would be the 3 to 8 range
Plus mounts

While I would agree with that being a reasonable universe setup overall, there should definitely be exceptions to that system.

And it has very little resemblance to unmodded SE4, so it can't really be applied to this project.

[spoon]

Originally posted by Rollo:
just want to point out that any changes to the Talisman is likely to screw up religious AI.

I assume a lot of designs use the 'always hit' ability (I know the UF does). If such a component is not available it will cripple the AI.

Rollo

I assume this is equally true for the Quantum Reactor (ie, if you change the effect, then the ai won't know to put it on their ships).

Since changing the comp size is also bad, and Geo pointed out that greatly increasing the cost might drive the ai bankrupt, what options do we have to balance these two items?

Is there anything about what the ai does that human players don't that we can take advantage of? For example, does the AI tend to build way too many farming facilities? (I have no idea). If they did, we could safely increase the organics cost of these components without have to worry about ai bankruptcy... That wouldn't be the ideal balance, but it would be something...

[Gozra]

I would like to propose only 3 modifications be put up for a vote.

1 Weaken pdc's. This helps fighters and missles

2 Increase the cost of the Talisman by a factor of 5

3 Reduce the warp opener range the max needs to be 150 LY or less

I also might add from some of the comments that a few of you have not been in any huge end games. With lots of ships and planets and big production many of the blance problems are minimized. I am in turn 170 of a game and watched 3 Groups of my fighters take out 3 dreadnoughts in a small fleet battle. Every weapon can be used to advantage at the end game. The only reason to 'Balance' the game is to help new players have fun.

[spoon]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:

quote:

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and finally advanced storage racial trait should be 1500

Rather than increase the cost, why not decrease the effect? That way, no AI modifications are required.

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Drop it to 110% (instead of 120%)?

Other traits that could use attention:

Advanced Power Conservation: 50% less power usage (instead of 25%)?

Hardy Industrialist: 120% SY rate (instead of 125%)?

[Katchoo]

Originally posted by spoon:

quote:

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Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
Double Ugh! Why does everyone keep saying to make torpedoes better with a to-hit modifier! This makes no sense!

Everyone knows that a space torpedo exlodes when it gets near its target, and it's the bLast radius that translates into its bonus to hit

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Why don't we take torpedoes in a slightly different direction, and make the damage increase as the range increases? This would make the torps the only weapon in the game that doesn't stand pat or get weaker the further out it goes.

As for explaining why it would do this in the first place, lets all just assume that the torp is fitted with an anti-matter explosive that gets more volitile the longer it's encased in the torp shell.

Doable?

[Phoenix-D]

"This makes no sense! A beam weapon like APB is almost instantaneous to strike it's target which can't really evade it, while a torpedo is moving fairly fast and won't be able to make quick sharp turns if the target makes a sudden move, so is more likely to miss than the beam."

The torp may well have a proximity charge and/or a limited ability to seek. That, and why would a beam weapon be almost instant? These aren't lasers; the APB is just a stream of anti-particles, no difference from a DUC slug except that when it hits matter, it makes a bigger boom.

[Suicide Junkie]

Summary
Unsorted Issues

• One-resource bonus facilities have no advantage over All-three bonus facilities.
• Fighters & Missiles too weak / PDC to powerful
• Climate Control Facilities too weak
• Medical Lab plague prevention effect too low
• Talisman too powerful
• Quantum Reactors too powerful
• PDC, PPB too powerful
• Torpedoes, Graviton Hellbore, Incinerator, too weak.
• Ship Training too powerful
• Not enough room for Weapon Platforms
• High level Intel ops too effective
• All of the new damage types not used
• Fighter Rocket pods -> Seekers?
• Supply Storage should count as Cargo for ship restrictions.
  

Trivial Changes:

• Add range to Tractor Beam III so its full pull effect can be used.
  

Moderate Changes:

• Large increase of cargo value for Cargo Facilities {Suggest values}

[ July 23, 2003, 23:39: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]