SE4 Stock Balance Mod

[PvK]

Originally posted by Gozra:
I am curious as to why you fellows are proposing such wide spread changes? It would seem to make sense to make a few changes and see how they work out.
One thing I noticed Is there does seem to be a common thread for changes and that means changing weapons. Which I do not understand why it is so necessary to change weapons? Making them all the same sounds boring.
And also Do the proposed changes have anything to do with your own style of play? Or can you 'prove' that there are improvements in play balance?

Good questions. I think that a lot can be done by just modding the start costs, as in my PvK Balance mod (to be completed).

I think though that there are a few issues which are pretty clearly broken (mostly those in SJ's list below). Some of what is being discussed though are more debateable, or ideas some players would just like to see changed.

There are a few players who think torpedoes are good weapons, and even one who likes the Graviton Hellbore (for warp defense, but still... ). So not everyone agrees with such suggestions, and there you can see we have some differences about the details, and how far it makes sense to go in a "simple" balance mod. However there does seem to be a pretty strong consensus on a number of points that would make gameplay more interesting.

I don't think there is much argument to make things more similar, but to try to make some of the things commonly regarded as "nearly useless" to have some effective use (and, a different use from the other things).

PvK

[PvK]

Oh! Oops. Well, in that case, I think it addresses the "PPB II is the best one" issue, and helps a wee bit with the "OMG it's only 5000 points" issue, but it doesn't address the "not much point in unphased shields" issue. Since you want to avoid impacting the AI, maybe make it 50000 research points (even level 1 and 2 are good weapons against pre-phased shields under your table) and/or -10 to hit.

PvK

Originally posted by geoschmo:

quote:

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Originally posted by PvK:
Yes, Geo's APB change sounds fine to me. It'll still be the "best" late-game weapon to many players' eyes, but it'll take longer to achieve. More incentive to try to put the research into something else and use a weapon that's easier to research.

PvK

Actually the suggested change I posted was for the PPB.

Geoschmo

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[Krsqk]

Originally posted by PvK:
Oh! Oops. Well, in that case, I think it addresses the "PPB II is the best one" issue, and helps a wee bit with the "OMG it's only 5000 points" issue, but it doesn't address the "not much point in unphased shields" issue. Since you want to avoid impacting the AI, maybe make it 50000 research points (even level 1 and 2 are good weapons against pre-phased shields under your table) and/or -10 to hit.

I think 50k may be a bit high, but it should be raised, maybe even to 20-25k. High Energy Discharge Weapons is 20k, is much less useful than PPB, and has more levels to research. Maybe HED at 15000 or 17500, and PPB at 20000 or 22500.

[Gozra]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Summary
Unsorted Issues

• Fighters & Missiles too weak / PDC to powerful "yes but it is very hard to stand up to the Fighter/missle storm
• Climate Control Facilities too weak
• Medical Lab plague prevention effect too low
• Talisman too powerful
• Quantum Reactors too powerful
• PDC, PPB too powerful
• Torpedoes, Graviton Hellbore, Incinerator, too weak.
• Ship Training too powerful
• Not enough room for Weapon Platforms "nope that is what cargo faclities are for"
• High level Intel ops too effective " not when you maintain your counter intel properly"
• All of the new damage types not used
• Fighter Rocket pods -> Seekers?
• Supply Storage should count as Cargo for ship restrictions.
  

Trivial Changes:

• Large increase of cargo value for Cargo Facilities {Suggest values}

A good start but are you thinking about the law of unintended consequenses? The only thing I would change at this point in PDC's and sensors.

[QuarianRex]

I think that if we actually want to get any of this accepted by MM then we should try to stick with the 'change as little as possible' idea. That means leaving talismans and quantum reactors with their original abilities. The chances of MM effectively removing them from the game are pretty close to nil. Besides, they are not really unbalancing (well not the QR at least). The QR is really just a time saver. You can either equip every ship in your fleet with a supply pod and individually activate them every turn (to be repaited by the fleet shipyard), or you can equip those ships with QR's and save yourself a headache.

As far as the unbalancing supremacy of the talisman is concerned, that (and effective countermeasures) has been discussed in other threads and is interesting considering that it is the only "weapon" in the religious racial tech.

In short, the abilities should stay (cause I'm sure that they aren't going anywhere). We already have sensors and supply storage, we don't need super sensors (that the AI cannot propperly take advantage of) or big fat supply tanks. If you wqant to balance them make them harder to get, not impossible to use. Increase the research cost so that their acquisition requires a significant investment.

By how much? I'm not sure yet.

[tesco samoa]

or change shields to have phased from the get go...

[PvK]

Re PPB:

Originally posted by Krsqk:
I think 50k may be a bit high, but it should be raised, maybe even to 20-25k. High Energy Discharge Weapons is 20k, is much less useful than PPB, and has more levels to research. Maybe HED at 15000 or 17500, and PPB at 20000 or 22500.

The thing about the PPB though is that even with Geo's proposed adjustment of its ability curve, it is still a good weapon even at level 1-2, and the only prerequisite is Physics II IIRC, and Physics I is pretty much necessary anyway. (Compare to SE3, where PPB had VERY limited range, not a lot of damage, and required high-tech shield tech to develop).

High-Energy Discharge Weapons are much more expensive because they require Propulsion 7 (which isn't really needed until late-game) AND have 10-12 levels to research.

So, if for this mod we don't want to curtail the abilities of PPB, or to increase the number of tech levels to get the good Versions (in Proportions, I increased the cost and made the tech area 12 levels with the best Versions only at the end of the tech tree), it seems to me that having an expensive research cost even to get the low levels of the weapon. You have to research Energy Pulse Weapons to level what... 5? ... before they have range 6. PPB starts out at range 6 immediately, and with comparable damage that ignores unphased shields. If level 2 is already a good weapon, and it only takes 6 levels to complete, it seems to me the base cost should be quite high.

PvK