SE4 Stock Balance Mod

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by spoon:
Much sooner? More like 2-3 turns earlier, which is why I discounted it. Mid game research is generally around 100k, no?

Well, I guess that depends on who is playing.

Geoschmo

[Pax]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
You could, but would you need to? The point of my comment that you quoted is that the stock AI's would work quite well with no changes at all. At least for these two changes.

Geoschmo

Well, if the Talisman is supposed to be +100 in addition to Combat Sensors, then, using Talisman without those sensors (uniformly, rather than in special cases) would produce a sub-optimal result.

[Rollo]

Originally posted by spoon:
With stats like those, why ever choose the Meson BLaster?...

Yes indeed. Why choose Meson BLaster at all? *shrugs*

Personally, in unmodded SE4 I never do. It dead ends too soon and has a very narrow window of usefulness IMO. But just because Meson BLaster is underpowered, doesn't mean that PPB should be as well. That would leave only APB as king.

I think Mesons should be upped in some way. Double damage to shields, perhaps? Or increase damage, range, lower cost, whatever.

Rollo

[spoon]

Originally posted by Rollo:


I think Mesons should be upped in some way. Double damage to shields, perhaps? Or increase damage, range, lower cost, whatever.

Rollo

This is what I'd do:
Increase range to 8, Give it +10% to hit, and reduce the rad cost from 120 to 40. The reduced rad cost will help it compete against the PPB, and the increased range will help it against the APB.

Conversely, if the PPB is significantly weakened, the Meson BLaster wouldn't have to change as much, and the APB can be tuned down a little.

At some point, we should probably go weapon by weapon, since balance is so inter-connected.

[Krsqk]

Originally posted by Pax:
Well, if the Talisman is supposed to be +100 in addition to Combat Sensors, then, using Talisman without those sensors (uniformly, rather than in special cases) would produce a sub-optimal result.

Make the Talisman a +125 to hit in the same family as the standard Combat Sensors. Then, it still gives an additional 60%, the AI would automatically use it when available, and humans couldn't double-dip with a CS-Talisman combo.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Pax:
Well, if the Talisman is supposed to be +100 in addition to Combat Sensors, then, using Talisman without those sensors (uniformly, rather than in special cases) would produce a sub-optimal result.

I don't think the objective was to make the AI use both. The 100% talisman by itself would be superior to a ship with only normal combat sensors. But not as superior as the current never miss talisman is. I think that was the objective.

Although if we you wanted the AI to use both, you are correct it would be a minor change and we could even include it with the mod.

Originally posted by Rollo:
But just because Meson BLaster is underpowered, doesn't mean that PPB should be as well. That would leave only APB as king.

I think Mesons should be upped in some way. Double damage to shields, perhaps? Or increase damage, range, lower cost, whatever.

Rollo

I think we need to make the PPB a little weaker and teh MB a little stronger. Either by itself doesn't address the problem. Changing either one drastically causes new problems.

The following is an editorial comment... Of course this is only opinion and anyone is free to disagree with me.

I like the idea of different weapons being superior to others at different times in the game. I think that was the intention of Aaron from looking at the files. The DUC in the early game, then torpedoes, then Meson BLaster, then PPB, and Lastly APB. Each should have it's own particular time during the game when it is the superior weapon choice, based on the time it takes to research it.

It's not a problem for me that the early game weapons are ultimatly outclassed on a one for one basis. Although there should be a cost factor there that allows them to still be at least partially competitive if you can take advantage of it by presenting your enemy with a superiority of numbers.

The problem is in the execution. For whatever reason it's clear that the PPB comes into it's own too early in the game. Thus making the Torps and MB pretty much irrelevant during the time in the game when they should rule. And the PPB and APB are too strong, or not expensive enough to allow the early game wepons to retain even an advantage in numbers at the end.

By tweaking all four of these ( I think the consensus is the DUC's are pretty good as they are) we should be able to acchieve a balance like this.

The remaining direct fire weapons would be your "niche" weapons, good for ceratin situations, but not the basis of your military, and your seekers which are different classes alltogether.

Of course everyone else idea of balance may be totally different then mine and they are free to think I am nuts.

Geoschmo

[ July 24, 2003, 19:36: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Fyron]

I go away for a couple of days and look what happens...

Time for some reading!