SE4 Stock Balance Mod

[Asmala]

Yes Fyron, the organization of the components in Adamant mod is done well. Devnullmod has also nice arrangement and more stock SE4 components (easier to copy )

One thing which also should be changed is supply amount that supply storages can store. At the beginning of the game it's ridiculous that you can squeeze an engine and 500 supply to 10kT but it requires 20kT to store nothing but 500 supply. And even if you have supply storage III engines can still store the same amount of supply per kT.

[Fyron]

It does not take long at all to reorganize the comps. In fact, I shall make a Version ordered about the same as Adamant right now, in case we want to use it.

Actually, as Rollo pointed out in #se4, reordering the comps will cause all savegames to not be upgradeable, so if we are to get this to be used for stock SE4, reordering isn't going to happen.

[ July 24, 2003, 23:57: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by spoon:
That said, however, I would much prefer there to be choices at each stage of the game rather than a simple formula to follow.

Well, I cetainly can see your point, I just disagree with it. In my mind having several basically equal weapons to choose from at any one time isn't really important. Yes it gives you a choice, but which choice you make is irrelevant. Since each one is more or less equal, they become interchangeable.

With the type of balance I am suggesting you still have choices. Any of the mainline weapons could be valid options at the end of the game, but they wouldn't be equal on a one for one basis. Different weapons would require different stratagies to take advantage of their strengths. One better at short range, one at long. One good for small fleets of powerful but expensive warships. One better for massive fleets of cheap, expendable "cannon fodder". I'll admit my vision of balance would be much harder to acchieve, but in my opinion it lends for a richer game.

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Geo, that is EXACTLY how PPBs worked in SE3, and they worked beautifully there IMO. They should not be a mainline weapon, they should be a support type weapon, only useful in some situations.

Originally posted by spoon:
What you just described is EXACTLY why I think the PPB should be a niche weapon, and not a mainline weapon...

If you guys want to have a discussion about whether or not the PPB should have remained a niche weapon in SE4, I may end up agreeing with you. But the fact is it is not a niche weapon for SE4, and hasn't been for almost three years now. It's asking a lot to get people to accept totally nerfing the weapon now at this late date.

Personally I don't care. As I said the game to me is more about strategy then weapon choice. But the only way this has a shot of working is if it's not strongly objectionable to a large percentage of the players. Not to mention any of the stock AI's that are designed aroung the PPB as a mainline weapon, I believe there are at least a couple, will have to be totally reworked, research and designs.

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
As it is now, they are so powerful that they become main line weapons, with really no decisions to make at all. Increasing choices to be made is ALWAYS a good idea (except when you increase from 30 to 40 choices or something ludicrous, ofc ).

I agree with you to a point, but I think by making smaller changes to them instead of totally nerfing them we can give players some more descisions to make without taking away the PPB as a mainline weapon option.

Remember this mod is all about concensus and compromise. Six months ago I was insisting that PPB were fine as they are and didn't need changed. Part of me still believes that, but in the interests of actually getting something accomplished I am attempting to reach a middle ground. But your position is a bit to radical for me. It's fine and all for you and you are free to do it in your mods. I might even like it in a mod. But trying to wedge that much change into the stock game, or even into a general widely distributed balance mod is going to be a tough sell.

Geoschmo

[ July 25, 2003, 00:33: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Fyron]

I agree with you to a point, but I think by making smaller changes to them

Such as?

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

quote:

---

I agree with you to a point, but I think by making smaller changes to them

Such as?

---

Such as what I suggested earlier in this thread, and what others have suggested as well. Increasing the research costs somewhat. Smoothing out the giant jumps between level 1 and 2 for starters. Perhaps decreasing the range in the earlier levels and making the weapon a bit more expensive. And perhaps even a small overall decrease in power at every level. Not suggesting all of those, but any two or three would do a lot to make give the other weapons more of a shot of being decent choices in comparison.

Geoschmo

[Suicide Junkie]

From what I've seen and heard here, ISTM that most of the weapons are actually quite reasonably balanced. The ones being discussed, at least.

The adjustments to low-level PPB in particular, are minor changes I think we can agree on, have little overall effect, but are nice to have.
Perhaps a small weakening of APB would be good as well, but very small changes.

Now, what do we do with GHB, torpedoes and High Energy Discharge weapons?
Once the weapons are out of the way, we can move to concentrate on other things.

---

One interesting idea from IRC is to reduce the cost of the Quantum reactor to a trivial amount.
The idea being that we should embrace the reactor as part of SE3 and 4, and make things fairer between Humans and AIs... with less cost, the AI won't suffer as much, and the Humans will be encouraged to use it more like the AIs do on many if not all ships.

----------

Summary
Unsorted Issues

• Massive Planetary shields much too weak and expensive
• Hyper Optics too easy/cheap to get vs other options.
• One-resource bonus facilities have no advantage over All-three bonus facilities.
• Fighters & Missiles too weak / PDC to powerful
• Climate Control Facilities too weak
• Medical Lab plague prevention effect too low
• Talisman too powerful
• Quantum Reactors too powerful
• PDC, PPB too powerful
• Torpedoes, Graviton Hellbore, Incinerator, too weak.
• Ship Training too powerful
• Not enough room for Weapon Platforms
• High level Intel ops too effective
• All of the new damage types not used
• Fighter Rocket pods -> Seekers?
• Supply Storage should count as Cargo for ship restrictions.
  

Trivial Changes:

• Move Standard Armor to below Stealth, scattering and emissive for the benefit of AI.
• Reduce Price of Quantum reactor to benefit AI
  

Minor Changes:

• Move Standard Armor to below Stealth, scattering and emissive , and add SA components with tech requirements of up to 6 (either identical to SA3, or reduced cost) for the benefit of AI.
• Smoothing of low level PPB improvements as below.
  

Moderate Changes:

• Increase in PPB research cost as below.
• Make standard Training Facilities System-wide for the benefit of AIs. Psychic Trait Version trains 2x as fast to keep it worthwhile.
  

Suggestions of note:

• Phased Polaron Beam Average Adjustment

  code:

  ---

  Research Cost: 15k
  
  Weapon Damage At Rng := 30 25 25 20 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
  
  Weapon Damage At Rng := 35 30 30 25 25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
  
  Weapon Damage At Rng := 45 40 40 35 35 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
  
  Weapon Damage At Rng := 50 45 45 40 40 40 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
  
  Weapon Damage At Rng := 60 55 55 55 50 50 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

  ---

[ July 25, 2003, 00:41: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Rollo]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

quote:

---

I agree with you to a point, but I think by making smaller changes to them

Such as?

---

Such as the ones that he already proposed.

EDIT: /me is just too slow...

[ July 25, 2003, 00:38: Message edited by: Rollo ]