SE4 Stock Balance Mod

[Suicide Junkie]

From what I've seen and heard here, ISTM that most of the weapons are actually quite reasonably balanced. The ones being discussed, at least.

The adjustments to low-level PPB in particular, are minor changes I think we can agree on, have little overall effect, but are nice to have.
Perhaps a small weakening of APB would be good as well, but very small changes.

Now, what do we do with GHB, torpedoes and High Energy Discharge weapons?
Once the weapons are out of the way, we can move to concentrate on other things.

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One interesting idea from IRC is to reduce the cost of the Quantum reactor to a trivial amount.
The idea being that we should embrace the reactor as part of SE3 and 4, and make things fairer between Humans and AIs... with less cost, the AI won't suffer as much, and the Humans will be encouraged to use it more like the AIs do on many if not all ships.

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Summary
Unsorted Issues

• Massive Planetary shields much too weak and expensive
• Hyper Optics too easy/cheap to get vs other options.
• One-resource bonus facilities have no advantage over All-three bonus facilities.
• Fighters & Missiles too weak / PDC to powerful
• Climate Control Facilities too weak
• Medical Lab plague prevention effect too low
• Talisman too powerful
• Quantum Reactors too powerful
• PDC, PPB too powerful
• Torpedoes, Graviton Hellbore, Incinerator, too weak.
• Ship Training too powerful
• Not enough room for Weapon Platforms
• High level Intel ops too effective
• All of the new damage types not used
• Fighter Rocket pods -> Seekers?
• Supply Storage should count as Cargo for ship restrictions.
  

Trivial Changes:

• Move Standard Armor to below Stealth, scattering and emissive for the benefit of AI.
• Reduce Price of Quantum reactor to benefit AI
  

Minor Changes:

• Move Standard Armor to below Stealth, scattering and emissive , and add SA components with tech requirements of up to 6 (either identical to SA3, or reduced cost) for the benefit of AI.
• Smoothing of low level PPB improvements as below.
  

Moderate Changes:

• Increase in PPB research cost as below.
• Make standard Training Facilities System-wide for the benefit of AIs. Psychic Trait Version trains 2x as fast to keep it worthwhile.
  

Suggestions of note:

• Phased Polaron Beam Average Adjustment

  code:

  ---

  Research Cost: 15k
  
  Weapon Damage At Rng := 30 25 25 20 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
  
  Weapon Damage At Rng := 35 30 30 25 25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
  
  Weapon Damage At Rng := 45 40 40 35 35 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
  
  Weapon Damage At Rng := 50 45 45 40 40 40 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
  
  Weapon Damage At Rng := 60 55 55 55 50 50 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

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[ July 25, 2003, 00:41: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Rollo]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

quote:

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I agree with you to a point, but I think by making smaller changes to them

Such as?

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Such as the ones that he already proposed.

EDIT: /me is just too slow...

[ July 25, 2003, 00:38: Message edited by: Rollo ]

[geoschmo]

How bad would it be if we just give the torps a ROF of 1? I am too tired to do the math right now, but would that make them an uber weapon or something?

Geoschmo

[Suicide Junkie]

2.5 damage per kt per turn. Yes, they would be uberweapons at that point.

They have been ROF 2 since SE3, so I'm quite sure they should stay that way.

Perhaps if the damage was brought up to 1.4 or 1.5, then they would be good for the one-shot pulse damage... 50% more damage than close range APB, but 100% longer reload time.

Adding 20 damage per torpedo would do it.
AMT 1 has only 30 damage/2 range, while Quantum V has 100 damage/6 range. All are 40kt in size, and reload of 2 turns.

[Rollo]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
How bad would it be if we just give the torps a ROF of 1? I am too tired to do the math right now, but would that make them an uber weapon or something?

Geoschmo

hmm, yes I think they would become too powerful then (also without doing the math)

one thing I don't like about this is that will give us 'yet another ROF 1" weapon.

Torpedoes don't need much tweaking either methinks. They are a good niche weapon and underestimated by most, I think.

The good thing about them is that they don't target units. Many people are using dedicated PD ships vs. units and seeker. Well, Torpedo ships are dedicated ship killers. None of their shots will be wasted on lesser targets. This can actually swing a battle in their favor.

Rollo

[ July 25, 2003, 00:53: Message edited by: Rollo ]

[Rollo]

PS: When upping the damage of Torpedoes, one has to keep some racial weapons in mind. Acid Globe, for example.

[tesco samoa]

will you adjust the cost of ppb.

as the cost of ppb is the current balance on it.

PPB fleets are expensive to maintain. Hence where the MB has some equalness....

If your going to adjust the stats then perhaps the cost should be adjusted as well.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
will you adjust the cost of ppb.

as the cost of ppb is the current balance on it.

Well, I think the prevailing opinion seems to be that the cost as it is does not do enough to balance it.

[spoon]

Originally posted by geoschmo:

quote:

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Originally posted by spoon:
[qb]That said, however, I would much prefer there to be choices at each stage of the game rather than a simple formula to follow.

Well, I cetainly can see your point, I just disagree with it. In my mind having several basically equal weapons to choose from at any one time isn't really important. Yes it gives you a choice, but which choice you make is irrelevant. Since each one is more or less equal, they become interchangeable.

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Heh, that is so much the opposite of my point, I am forced to put one of those eyeball-rolling guys in my post... In fact, it appears that you say you want balance and choices, but your suggestions don't really live up to that. You want minor tweaks and the game to stay basically as is. There is nothing wrong with that, but don't try to sell it as a "vision of balance".

With the type of balance I am suggesting you still have choices. Any of the mainline weapons could be valid options at the end of the game, but they wouldn't be equal on a one for one basis.

No, you are suggesting that the PPB is fine as is, but that you would put up with a minor change as compromise. The game, as it is, does not give you significant strategic choice. You have PPBs for the mid game, and APBs for the late game.

Different weapons would require different stratagies to take advantage of their strengths. One better at short range, one at long. One good for small fleets of powerful but expensive warships. One better for massive fleets of cheap, expendable "cannon fodder". I'll admit my vision of balance would be much harder to acchieve, but in my opinion it lends for a richer game.

This is what I have been arguing for when I mention giving each weapon a role or a niche. I am glad we can agree on that! However, in order to do that, you have to be willing to make more changes than you seem willing to concede. Again, that is a fine approach, and if this mod wants to lean in that direction, that is fine, but don't fool yourself into thinking you are addressing the main issues of game balance.

If you guys want to have a discussion about whether or not the PPB should have remained a niche weapon in SE4, I may end up agreeing with you. But the fact is it is not a niche weapon for SE4, and hasn't been for almost three years now. It's asking a lot to get people to accept totally nerfing the weapon now at this late date.

This does seem to be the way SJ is leaning as well. I disagree with it, and think the game would be better without such a dominant mid-game weapon. However, if you want to avoid doing any major changes, then, yeah, tweak it a little and see if it makes a difference. Always room for iteration, I suppose.

Not to mention any of the stock AI's that are designed aroung the PPB as a mainline weapon, I believe there are at least a couple, will have to be totally reworked, research and designs.

This is the best reason to leave the PPB only slightly diminished in power. It's a good one, but it makes me think that perhaps we need a Human-Only Balance Mod as well, since so many good changes that have been suggested (for QR, Talisman, etc) won't work well with the AI. It is proving to be too much of a limiting factor, I think, to make the current mod as useful as it could be.

[spoon]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
From what I've seen and heard here, ISTM that most of the weapons are actually quite reasonably balanced. The ones being discussed, at least.

From what I've heard, there is still a lively debate...heh