SE4 Stock Balance Mod

[Suicide Junkie]

Any other comments on the Hellbores, Torpedoes and High energy weapons?

[spoon]

Geo -

Before I go into nitpicky detail to explain myself, let me assure you I never meant my comments as a personal affront, and apologize if I came off sounding that way.

Originally posted by geoschmo:

quote:

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Originally posted by spoon:
Heh, that is so much the opposite of my point, I am forced to put one of those eyeball-rolling guys in my post...

Well forgive me if I have misinterpreted your comments, but even now it appears that is what you are saying. From my point of view you are saying that my understanding of your ceomments is incorrect, and then restating the same thing I just said. I guess we have some different definitions of some words or something.

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I think this earlier post sums up my position, so I don't see how you can say my goal is to have generic weapon non-choices:

I think every weapon should have its role - and that is where the problem comes in for SE4 - too few weapons fill up too many roles. The APB has both great range and a great damage ratio. The PPB both skips shields and has a great damage ratio.

Might be a valid approach for this mod to seperate each weapon into its own niche, and then balance it from that perspective.

Next:

Originally posted by spoon:
In fact, it appears that you say you want balance and choices, but your suggestions don't really live up to that. You want minor tweaks and the game to stay basically as is. There is nothing wrong with that, but don't try to sell it as a "vision of balance".

Ok, well up till now this has been a fairly calm, frank and impersonal discussion. I am probably reading too much into this but you apperar to now be accusing me of somehow misrepresenting my true opinion on the matter and persuing some hidden agenda. If that is what you are saying I resent it. If it is not what you are saying I would appreciate it if you would choose your words more carefully in the future.

I'm not accusing you of Dark Hidden Agendas or Devilish Endeavors. (though I do have my tinfoil hat just in case). What I am saying is I like your goal, but not the method you choose to achieve that goal. The suggestions you had made up until this point had consisted mainly of minor data tweaks, which I don't believe is enough of a change to achieve balance.

Originally posted by geoschmo:
With the type of balance I am suggesting you still have choices. Any of the mainline weapons could be valid options at the end of the game, but they wouldn't be equal on a one for one basis.
Originally posted by spoon:
No, you are suggesting that the PPB is fine as is, but that you would put up with a minor change as compromise. The game, as it is, does not give you significant strategic choice. You have PPBs for the mid game, and APBs for the late game.

Originally posted by geoschmo:
If I was suggesting the PPB is fine as is why would I have bothered to make the numerous and detailed suggestions I have made in this very thread to change it.

I was basing my claims on these two comments that you made earlier in this thread:

I disagree with "nerfing" the PPB. I like them as a frontline weapon. I would prefer jsut a smoothing out of their progression and slowing down their research a tad.

and

Remember this mod is all about concensus and compromise. Six months ago I was insisting that PPB were fine as they are and didn't need changed. Part of me still believes that, but in the interests of actually getting something accomplished I am attempting to reach a middle ground

So, I don't think you can blame me if I got your position confused

Next:

Originally posted by geoschmo:
The way I see it we both think the PPB needs some changes. We just have a difference of opinoin as to how much it needs changed. You really need to get to where you can disagree with me without accusing me of misrepresenting myself Spoon.

If you want to balance the PPB, and you think that by reducing the range at lvls 1-2 and increasing research by 5k will do it, then I will have to call you stark raving mad. (disclaimer - I don't really think you are stark raving mad, but I don't think your suggestions (up to that point) adequately addressed the problems of the PPB).

Originally posted by geoschmo:
I have stated I agree with the concept of niche weapons. I merely disagree that we should take the PPB, a weapon that has a clear history in SE4 of being a mainline weapon and turning it into yet another niche weapon. How does that give you more choices?

Making the PPB a niche weapon gives you more choices by giving the weapons that it had previously dominated over some breathing room. Since all weapons are interconnected, reducing the strength of the PPB will increase the strength of all the other weapons that are competing with it in the mid-game. Double true if we up the power of torps, HEDs, and others.

I think that you can acchieve choices in different ways. You just have to be willing to accept different interpretations of what balanced is.

I believe I am willing to accept that for most weapons, but the PPB is a menace, so I'm a little more adamant about it.

[Suicide Junkie]

What I am saying is I like your goal, but not the method you choose to achieve that goal. The suggestions you had made up until this point had consisted mainly of minor data tweaks, which I don't believe is enough of a change to achieve balance.

In order to stand a chance of becoming the stock mod, minor data tweaks are all we can allow.

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by spoon:
I believe I am willing to accept that for most weapons, but the PPB is a menace, so I'm a little more adamant about it.

Ok, so what say you of my hairbrained scheme to remove the shield skipping ability from the PPB that I posted this morning? I am a little suprised noone has commented on it. Perhaps it is so bad it's not worth commenting on?

Geoschmo

[spoon]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Ok, so what say you of my hairbrained scheme to remove the shield skipping ability from the PPB that I posted this morning? I am a little suprised noone has commented on it. Perhaps it is so bad it's not worth commenting on?

I think it has merit and is worth considering...

Maybe give the Skips Shields (unphased) ability to the Hellbore in exchange?

[spoon]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
In order to stand a chance of becoming the stock mod, minor data tweaks are all we can allow.

Hmm, I think I should use a different wording. I understand we can only do data tweaks, and you don't want anything that would initiate a cascade of changes. What I meant was the level of tweaking should be greater in some instances.

For example, reducing the damage of the PPB by 10 across the board (I'm not suggesting this, though it might be worth considering) is what I would call a major change. Reducing the range at level 1 and 2 is a minor change.

Some weapons need a major change, I think.

[Chronon]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Any other comments on the Hellbores, Torpedoes and High energy weapons?

I think the previous suggestions on these weapons are very good.

I would just like to add my vote for extended range and a little more oomph (damage) for the torpedoes. It would be wonderful if they were a viable alternative to the beam weapons.

I think your idea about the PPB's, Geo, has exactly the right intent - it's the shield skipping ability that brings the PPB to "uberweapon" status. I'll bet PPB's would still be used anyway (it's got a good damage ratio), and it would restore shields as a good early game option. We could do away with phased shields, then, and have a more gradual build-up of shield points over the entire range of shield levels (instead of ignoring them until shields level six, you could get started right away).

I do understand the goal of making minimal changes, though, so the general reduction of PPB by 10 points across the board might be just enough to make the other weapons viable mid-game options.

Good luck with the mod, SJ, this is an excellent idea!

[PvK]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Any other comments on the Hellbores, Torpedoes and High energy weapons?

It was suggested that the G.Hellbore could have range increased and ROF 2 instead of 3. I think ROF definitely should not change, because it would change the nature of the weapon, not just its effectiveness. GH should remain an ROF 3 weapon with short range and good short-range damage. It just needs to be effective in its niche, which it really isn't. Again, I think it should be either all-shield-skipping or armor-skipping (several mods do one or the other of these).

For torps and HE weapons, I still like my suggestions, and also like the recent ideas mentioned:

Torps having increased to-hit, damage, and cost. (right now they are quite cheap, especially at low levels)

The idea to increase WMG range is one I like. Currently it's +30 to-hit bonus does give it some value at range compared to APB, but it is really weak in terms of damage/ROF/size, so a range bonus would make it more unique and interesting.

PvK

[spoon]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Any other comments on the Hellbores, Torpedoes and High energy weapons?

I think part of the problem is it's hard to say what to do to these weapons until we know what you are going to do to the current main weapons (DUC, MB, PPB, APB) so we have something to balance them against.

You might want to start with deciding what to do specifically to the PPB (most people seem to want to do something), then balance the APB based on the new PPB. Then the MB. Then the DUC. (Might well be some of these will require no change at all...) And so on.

Then, after every weapon has been examined, go back and look at them again...

[Gryphin]

Not sure if it was mentioned but I would like a few component types broken down into smaller kt sizes to fill in that Last 5kt of space. Supply, Cargo, PDC, and maybe other guns might be good for this.