SE4 Stock Balance Mod

[Chronon]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Any other comments on the Hellbores, Torpedoes and High energy weapons?

I think the previous suggestions on these weapons are very good.

I would just like to add my vote for extended range and a little more oomph (damage) for the torpedoes. It would be wonderful if they were a viable alternative to the beam weapons.

I think your idea about the PPB's, Geo, has exactly the right intent - it's the shield skipping ability that brings the PPB to "uberweapon" status. I'll bet PPB's would still be used anyway (it's got a good damage ratio), and it would restore shields as a good early game option. We could do away with phased shields, then, and have a more gradual build-up of shield points over the entire range of shield levels (instead of ignoring them until shields level six, you could get started right away).

I do understand the goal of making minimal changes, though, so the general reduction of PPB by 10 points across the board might be just enough to make the other weapons viable mid-game options.

Good luck with the mod, SJ, this is an excellent idea!

[PvK]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Any other comments on the Hellbores, Torpedoes and High energy weapons?

It was suggested that the G.Hellbore could have range increased and ROF 2 instead of 3. I think ROF definitely should not change, because it would change the nature of the weapon, not just its effectiveness. GH should remain an ROF 3 weapon with short range and good short-range damage. It just needs to be effective in its niche, which it really isn't. Again, I think it should be either all-shield-skipping or armor-skipping (several mods do one or the other of these).

For torps and HE weapons, I still like my suggestions, and also like the recent ideas mentioned:

Torps having increased to-hit, damage, and cost. (right now they are quite cheap, especially at low levels)

The idea to increase WMG range is one I like. Currently it's +30 to-hit bonus does give it some value at range compared to APB, but it is really weak in terms of damage/ROF/size, so a range bonus would make it more unique and interesting.

PvK

[spoon]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Any other comments on the Hellbores, Torpedoes and High energy weapons?

I think part of the problem is it's hard to say what to do to these weapons until we know what you are going to do to the current main weapons (DUC, MB, PPB, APB) so we have something to balance them against.

You might want to start with deciding what to do specifically to the PPB (most people seem to want to do something), then balance the APB based on the new PPB. Then the MB. Then the DUC. (Might well be some of these will require no change at all...) And so on.

Then, after every weapon has been examined, go back and look at them again...

[Gryphin]

Not sure if it was mentioned but I would like a few component types broken down into smaller kt sizes to fill in that Last 5kt of space. Supply, Cargo, PDC, and maybe other guns might be good for this.

[PvK]

Remove PPB's phased concept, making them and Phased shields pointless (except for Phased Shield V)?

Like many of the ideas, it would be an interesting mod variant, but it's a design change rather than a balance adjustment.

The phased/unphased shield feature is a good one, I think. The problem is not that feature - it's that the PPB, designed as a counter-measure to normal shields, is so good that it's a counter-measure to everything. That's a balance problem.

What I get from the wish for PPB and MB to compete with APB, is that these are three of the best all-around weapons, and players do want to have a variety of non-racial ROF 1 main weapons, with trade-offs at different ranges. Again, seems to me that the answer to this is:

* PPB must have a phased effect. Otherwise you're throwing out an interesting game element to get a generic weapon, and will have to re-do the shield components. That's not balance - it's redesign (and ill-considered, IMO).

* PPB should have some disadvantage compared to all weapons that don't skip normal shields. This could be in the form of significant expense, reduced firepower, or reduced accuracy.

* If you think MB needs to be improved, then I don't think you've run enough cost/effect analysis of other weapons which are harder to get, such as racial normal-damage ROF 1 weapons.

* If there is a strong desire for a slightly better MB-like weapon, or an unphased weapon that's otherwise like the PPB, I'd suggest looking at some of the Racial tech weapons which already fit into these categories. They tend to be not so efficient as-is, and their racial requirement somewhat justifies them having some advantage over non-racial weapons.

PvK

[Fyron]

However, consider all of the scifi to date... In those that had shields, was the armor ever even comparable in strength?

YES! Ever hear of the Hirogen? There are dozens of races in Star Trek alone that use NO SHIELDING and have very strong armor, providing better defense than shields!

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
In order to stand a chance of becoming the stock mod, minor data tweaks are all we can allow.

Bah. If you do not want to do what is necessary to create a balance mod, you need to rename this thread to "Minor Tweak Mod" or something like that.

[ July 26, 2003, 00:23: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Pax]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

quote:

---

However, consider all of the scifi to date... In those that had shields, was the armor ever even comparable in strength?

YES! Ever hear of the Hirogen? There are dozens of races in Star Trek alone that use NO SHIELDING and have very strong armor, providing better defense than shields!

---

In fact, in the tabletop (not computer) game "Star Fleet Battles", very often a small blockof Armor was considered a very storng point, bringing an otherwise sub-par ship into the realm of being viable, or making a viable but otherwised undistinguished ship desireable.

Even in cases where the ship HAD shields.

And then there're things like the Defiant -- federation ship, very strong shields, but also solid armor plating, too.