SE4 Stock Balance Mod

[Pax]

Originally posted by Taera:
umm, no. armor doesnt have a counter such as shields do - the shield depleter (150 damage for 20kT ROF1 is not a joke) and shield distruptor.

Sure it does. Armor-skipping weapons (a trait being considered here for the Graviton Hellbore, not to mention the Shard Cannon).

The point is, Armor is more costly. Screw the backup-to-shields routine; once you have phased shields, don't waste space on armor ... at least not in current, unmodded stock SE4, and aside perhaps form Stealth and Scattering armor (solely for their defense bonusses).

Armor HP are more expensive than Shield HP, in termsof battle losses. If your ship has one Phased Shield V generator, and you get hit for 300hp of damage in a battle, you've lost nothing.

OTOH, if you have 4 slabs of normal armor (same 40kT space), you've got damaged components, and are in need of repair time; until repairs are complete, your ship is less able to survive combat.

So, I think making armor have more hp/kT than shields generate would be a GOOD thing. If the top-level standard Armor component had 120hp, then, 40kT of Armor would barely edge out a 40kT PhaseV generator ... if you didn't include the generator's hp.

• Two PhaseV generators, giving you 700 shield hp and ~80 structure hp
• One PhaseV generator and 4 ArmorX's, giving you 375 shields, ~40 structure, and 480 armor hp.
• Eight ArmorX's, giving you 0 shields, but 960 armor hp.
  

The options give you ~880hp, ~1000hp, and 960hp respectively. Sure, the pure-armored ship is harder to kill -- but it costs more minerals than the pure-shielded ship, and, every 120hp of damage is a component that, if the ship survives, will need to be repaired.
And yes, I know -- in fleet battles, you usually end up with lots of dead ships and a survivor or two, rendering repair a less-significant concern there. So? There's still refits, warp-point-based damage (even armor-heavy races will still favor minimal shielding for THAT), mines, and so on.

And a pure-armor ship will be a smoking, HOLLOW hull in short order, versus armor-skipping weapons.

...

On a different topic: I agree, the Shield Regenerators as they are now, are absolutely pitiful. I think they need some radical work. So, how about: cut their size to 10kT, and up their regeneration rates to 20/level ... ?

That way, the ShieldRegen5 would make +100 shield points, in 10kTof space (the same space devoted to shield regen would give +200 per turn, but would also cost twice as much). You might then see ships devote some serious tonnage to shield regeneration (about 50/50 with PhaseV shielding).

Or if that seems steep, either (a) keep 'em 20kT each with the new regen numbers, or (b) drop them to 10kT and make the regen rates 10/level?

I personally favor the 10kT size regardless, as that helps fill in some of the 10kT "holes" you find while building ships. Any shielded ship might benefit from +50sp/turn or so from that Last, unused 10kT of hullspace ...

[oleg]

Originally posted by Asmala:
I've four questions:

1. Does it matter if the possible patch isn't compatible with the earlier savegames?

2. Does the change in component family affect to AI?

3. Does the component's decrease in size affect to AI (besides that there might be empty space in AI's designs)?

EDIT:
4. Trivial Changes:
Move Standard Armor to below Stealth, scattering and emissive for the benefit of AI.
How this'll benefit the AI?

The very idea of this mod is to balance the stock SE, so yes, it must be compatible with old savegames. Just small tweaks here and there.

Obviously, the would be no changes in component family numbers !

Properly made AI should work reasonably well with smaller components. In worst case ships would have more armor

[Phoenix-D]

The very idea of this mod is to balance the stock SE, so yes, it must be compatible with old savegames."

This means we can't move components, or add any new ones except at the end of the file. Same for facilities.

[Pax]

Originally posted by oleg:
The very idea of this mod is to balance the stock SE, so yes, it must be compatible with old savegames. Just small tweaks here and there.

Obviously, the would be no changes in component family numbers !

I disagree. While compatibility with existing savegames would be nice to aim for, I hardly count it as a required feature.

If things need to be moved, if we need to add a couple components, if changing a few family numbers is needed ... if it's all working towards a truly improved balance ... then it should be done.

Granting old savegames some sort of "Sacred Cow" status would be counterproductive in light of the balance mod's aims.

Balance first, balance second, balance third, and all else a very distant Last place.

[Andrés]

quote:

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2. Does the change in component family affect to AI?

Obviously, the would be no changes in component family numbers !

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Do not mistake component family and weapon familiy.
Component family does not affect the AI at all. It is only used to determine what components are shown when you select "show only latest". Changing some would make for example normal shields be shown making design easier because you would not have to toggle that option all the time.

Changing weapon family may be interesting, allowing modders to make different designs using WMG and RB, but would screw current AI.

I like current relation between shields and armor. I like that most protection must come from shields, it is that way in most sci fi. I'd even go back to SE3-like proportions. Armor is also good as protection agianst damaging warp points and storms, and aginst mines.

The only change I'd make in armor, is making EA (and specially their ability) more powrful to compensate weapon mounts, and stacked fighter weapons.
Correct me if I'm wrong, EA works as it is descrived, and not as it worked in SE3. That is, any damage below 10, 20 and 30 is negated, anything larger does full damage. Totally useless, since very few weapons do less than 30 of damage, specially in a weapon mount.

[Fyron]

Actually, EA lowers damage by 10, 20 or 30 points from each shot.

[Pax]

Originally posted by Andres:
I like current relation between shields and armor. I like that most protection must come from shields, it is that way in most sci fi. I'd even go back to SE3-like proportions. Armor is also good as protection agianst damaging warp points and storms, and aginst mines.

And I don't like it, because it means (barring racial technologies) there is only ONE good way to protect your ships.

I woul prefer there to be a choice. Just like we're discussing making it more of a choice between MB, PPB, and APB. Just like we're discussing making Torpedoes more viable, and toning down PDC.

All of it geared towards encouraging higher diversity in choice, without any one choice becoming the end-all, be-all way to go.