SE4 Stock Balance Mod

[oleg]

Originally posted by Asmala:
I've four questions:

1. Does it matter if the possible patch isn't compatible with the earlier savegames?

2. Does the change in component family affect to AI?

3. Does the component's decrease in size affect to AI (besides that there might be empty space in AI's designs)?

EDIT:
4. Trivial Changes:
Move Standard Armor to below Stealth, scattering and emissive for the benefit of AI.
How this'll benefit the AI?

The very idea of this mod is to balance the stock SE, so yes, it must be compatible with old savegames. Just small tweaks here and there.

Obviously, the would be no changes in component family numbers !

Properly made AI should work reasonably well with smaller components. In worst case ships would have more armor

[Phoenix-D]

The very idea of this mod is to balance the stock SE, so yes, it must be compatible with old savegames."

This means we can't move components, or add any new ones except at the end of the file. Same for facilities.

[Pax]

Originally posted by oleg:
The very idea of this mod is to balance the stock SE, so yes, it must be compatible with old savegames. Just small tweaks here and there.

Obviously, the would be no changes in component family numbers !

I disagree. While compatibility with existing savegames would be nice to aim for, I hardly count it as a required feature.

If things need to be moved, if we need to add a couple components, if changing a few family numbers is needed ... if it's all working towards a truly improved balance ... then it should be done.

Granting old savegames some sort of "Sacred Cow" status would be counterproductive in light of the balance mod's aims.

Balance first, balance second, balance third, and all else a very distant Last place.

[Andrés]

quote:

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2. Does the change in component family affect to AI?

Obviously, the would be no changes in component family numbers !

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Do not mistake component family and weapon familiy.
Component family does not affect the AI at all. It is only used to determine what components are shown when you select "show only latest". Changing some would make for example normal shields be shown making design easier because you would not have to toggle that option all the time.

Changing weapon family may be interesting, allowing modders to make different designs using WMG and RB, but would screw current AI.

I like current relation between shields and armor. I like that most protection must come from shields, it is that way in most sci fi. I'd even go back to SE3-like proportions. Armor is also good as protection agianst damaging warp points and storms, and aginst mines.

The only change I'd make in armor, is making EA (and specially their ability) more powrful to compensate weapon mounts, and stacked fighter weapons.
Correct me if I'm wrong, EA works as it is descrived, and not as it worked in SE3. That is, any damage below 10, 20 and 30 is negated, anything larger does full damage. Totally useless, since very few weapons do less than 30 of damage, specially in a weapon mount.

[Fyron]

Actually, EA lowers damage by 10, 20 or 30 points from each shot.

[Pax]

Originally posted by Andres:
I like current relation between shields and armor. I like that most protection must come from shields, it is that way in most sci fi. I'd even go back to SE3-like proportions. Armor is also good as protection agianst damaging warp points and storms, and aginst mines.

And I don't like it, because it means (barring racial technologies) there is only ONE good way to protect your ships.

I woul prefer there to be a choice. Just like we're discussing making it more of a choice between MB, PPB, and APB. Just like we're discussing making Torpedoes more viable, and toning down PDC.

All of it geared towards encouraging higher diversity in choice, without any one choice becoming the end-all, be-all way to go.

[oleg]

Andres, did you install the latest patch ?
There was much rejoicing when EA was finally fixed.

[oleg]

Pax makes a valid point, armour needs some extra points, Geosmo showed very clearly that armour actually makes ships weaker

[Sir Whiskers]

Just throwing in my two cents' worth...

Concerning the PPB, the Devnull Mod makes two changes which considerably reduce its effectiveness:

1. Normal/Phased shields alternate within the same tech tree. Shields I are normal, Shields II phased, Shields III normal, etc. This allows players to reach phased shields much more quickly. At the same time, reaching the largest shields (300/375) takes longer. This means that shields will not be quite as superior vs. armor.

2. Armor has been beefed up tremendously. Though it gets very expensive in terms of research, Armor level 9 is well worth it.

Neither of these changes nerfs the PPB - they just make it less overwhelming in the early/mid game. My question is would these changes be do-able within the constraints of this discussion? And how would they affect the AI, if at all?

A few other changes I'd suggest (again, within the constraints of the current discussion):

1. Remove Chemistry I as a prerequisite for armor. Armor would be available for research at the beginning of any game, even on the lowest tech start. While armor is less efficient than shields, it is effective against PPB's, and would give players some form of defense until phased shields are available.

2. Do not remove the shield piercing effect of PPB's (I agree with others who've posted that this ability is just too much a part of the flavor of the weapon). But certainly smooth out the damage/range as earlier suggested, and increase the research cost by 50% at each level.

3. Capital Ship Missiles - do NOT give them unlimited range, as was suggested earlier. If low-tech missiles can be fired from extremely long range, then defending planets with WP's will have to use missiles for defense (no ship would come within range of a direct-fire weapon). This would have the effect of making missiles the only weapon for planetary assault/defense - limiting our options, not expanding them. Also, fleets with sufficient PD would be able to assault all but the most overwhelming defenses with impunity. To make missiles a more effective choice in the early game, consider reducing the size from 50kt to 40kt, or even 30kt. Their high supply usage will ensure that any early fleet depending on them will be on a short leash, balancing the increase in launchers.

[Andrés]

No, it's a sci-fi-ish concept that makes the game look more futuristic, an advanced energy field we don't even understand how it works provides much better protection than a crude metallic plate.
I like Sir Whiskers' suggestion, removing the chemistry requirement, and maybe even make level 1 available from start, though that may screw current AI a little.
IMHO armor should be the cheap early protection, and not something that rivals with shields in late game.

I stand corrected on the EA thing, I guess I have not used them lately.
Though I still think it should be made a little stronger.
Also the description should be fixed to reflect the real effect of the ability.