OT:US don't qualify for EU membership, don't spank children, WW2 history.

[oleg]

...And actually east of Moscow there was no vast population. As oleg alluded to it's mostly undeveloped wilderness and rural areas. At least that was the case during the time we are talking about. I don't know if it's much different now or not.

Geoschmo[/QB]

No, no, no, Moscow was in the center of the Russian Motherland. There were many big industrial cities to the East. Stalingrad is very far away to South East. That is where wilderness was - East and South east from Stalingrad.

[primitive]

Thermo:
Strangely enough, reading your document I find this statement:
State sponsorship has decreased over the past several decades.

Kinda oposite of your statement that todays terrorism are state sponsored. I do not dispute that some of the Palestinian splinter Groups operates from within Syria and Iran, but that are "local" Groups, bad enough, but not a part of the new "global" terrorist picture brought forward by 9/11 and the Bali bomb. There's just nowhere you can do your carpet bomb revenge thing to stop that kind of actions.

[oleg]

Syria and Iran support palestinian Groups. But they have no links with Al-Queda. Neither did Saddam. When Al-Queda will do a next terrorist act against US - and sooner or later they will if not hunted down before, who will you bomb ? Saudi Arabia ? Or may be Germany because terrorists had and may still have cells in Hamburg ?

BTW, any news about Osama ? He must be very happy these days watching the growing Arabs anger.

[Fyron]

Primitive, that statement actually supports Thermo's claim that there is state-sponsored terrorism. I don't recall him saying that it had increased in the Last few decades, just that it is there.

[Thermodyne]

That’s weak Primitive. The documents make the case as you requested. I made no statement on growth or reduction.

As to my opinion that force should be used, there we will just have to disagree. I will continue to vote for candidates that take an aggressive stand against terrorism. And you can do with your vote as you see fit. And we will both watch as the situation unfolds. I would note that I have seen more arrests of suspected terrorists in Iran and Saudi Arabia since the west destroyed Saddams Army then I was seeing before. The ease with which four divisions defeated the strongest Arab army in the world has already produced some dividends. And the myth that a western army could not occupy Iraq is disproved.

To address your quote, the subject speaks to the lessened efforts of the soviet sponsored Groups and a diminished amount of activity by European Groups. And the statement is actually a little different when taken in a little larger bite.

“State sponsorship has decreased over the past several decades. As it decreases, it becomes increasingly important for all countries to adopt a "zero tolerance" for terrorist activity within their borders. Terrorists will seek safehaven in those areas where they are able to avoid the rule of law and to travel, prepare, raise funds, and operate. The United States continued actively researching and gathering intelligence on other states that will be considered for designation as state sponsors. If the United States deems a country to "repeatedly provide support for acts of international terrorism," the US Government is required by law to add it to the list”

[ July 28, 2003, 19:25: Message edited by: Thermodyne ]

[Will]

Fyron, I believe primitive was taking exception to this statement:

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
In the situation we have now, the terrorism is state sponsored. This requires that we bring force to bear on the states involved.

Primitive is saying that all the evidence of state-sponsored terrorism has been local, not global (ie, Hamas targets Israel, and only Israel, not all westernized cultures). He's also saying that the force that would be used against the states that sponsor local terrorism will only spawn more fanatics that will be prime recruits for al Qaida (sp?). bin Laden's group doesn't recieve support from governments, but rather from individuals and small Groups. The entire nature of their beliefs is pretty much a religious anarchy. There is no state but the nation of Islam, and the only leader is Allah and His Prophet, etc...

[primitive]

Thermo (and Fyron):
As Will quoted: The original full statement goes:

Originally posted by Thermodyne:
In the situation we have now, the terrorism is state sponsored. This requires that we bring force to bear on the states involved.

With my poor language skills I interpret the "now" as something different from what was "before".
Hmmmm.

And re Iraq:
Yes, the Saddam goverment and army colapsed quite nicely. Kudos to the coalition forces for a well fought campaign with a minimum of casualities on both sides. However, its to early to claim victory in Iraq yet. Until your guys are safe out of there and a stable democratic goverment are established, the objectives for the war are not met. As it is now, guerilla warfare are on the rise and more soldiers are lost every day.
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