OT - Scientific proof that there is no afterlife!

[General Woundwort]

Another false assumption - that extradimensional realities (heaven, hell) have the exact same "natural laws" that 4-dimensional space does. If the physical universe was created by God, it would seem logical that He existed prior to it and is transcendent above it - therefore He is not bound by its laws.

EDIT - Ed's spoof reminds me of the "proof" of God's non-existence in the Hitchhiker's series.

[ August 17, 2003, 23:12: Message edited by: General Woundwort ]

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Slick:
Your assumption: a soul has mass.

Dubious at best, and no evidence to support it. Of course, that is fine for satire.

Slick.

Your assumption: there is a soul.

Everything that exists is matter or energy (or something like anti-matter, which is equivalent for purposes of this post). But, matter is energy, and energy is matter. All waves of energy have particle-like properties, such as a mass equivalent property, though it is normally infintesimal. All particles of matter have wave-like properties, though those are normally infintesimal (except for very, very fast moving particles, such as electrons, which are particles, but act more like waves than particles). Thoughts are energy on a quantum level, which exist because of the properties of the neural cells in the brain (which are mass). So, if the soul exists, it is either energy or matter (or one of those other things (such as anti-matter), which are equivalent. Either way, it would have a mass. This is not saying that the post by Ed means anything, just saying that the theoretical soul has a mass value. Of course, proving that the soul actually exists is a much more complex issue. And keep in mind that any arguments akin to "the [holy scripture/person of choice] says we have a soul, so we have a soul" are laughable at best. Any reasoning being can do better than that, and all humans are reasoning beings.

[General Woundwort]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Everything that exists is matter or energy (or something like anti-matter, which is equivalent for purposes of this post).

In this dimension. What about others?

So, if the soul exists, it is either energy or matter (or one of those other things (such as anti-matter), which are equivalent. Either way, it would have a mass. This is not saying that the post by Ed means anything, just saying that the theoretical soul has a mass value.

Again, based on an unfounded extrapolation of physical reality onto non/extraphysical dimensions.

Of course, proving that the soul actually exists is a much more complex issue. And keep in mind that any arguments akin to "the [holy scripture/person of choice] says we have a soul, so we have a soul" are laughable at best. Any reasoning being can do better than that, and all humans are reasoning beings.

All humans are reasoning? Would that that were true...

Seriously, the arguments for supernatural reality are much better than that - they just haven't been articulated well for the Last 200 years or so. Don't tell me that Dawkins is a greater mind than Augustine or Pascal, Fyron...

[Fyron]

In this dimension. What about others?

Again, based on an unfounded extrapolation of physical reality onto non/extraphysical dimensions.

What others? Please bring me some pictures from these other dimensions of yours. There is no proof of the existence of other dimensions, only a plethora of hypothesis (no theories, as there is no proof or concrete evidence of them).

Seriously, the arguments for supernatural reality are much better than that - they just haven't been articulated well for the Last 200 years or so. Don't tell me that Dawkins is a greater mind than Augustine or Pascal, Fyron...

Yes, and the arguments against are just as well articulated. Good articulation does not make an argument correct, just well articulated. Reality just happens to support the arguments against supernatural reality a bit better, as there is no concrete evidence of these supernatural realities.

All humans are reasoning? Would that that were true...

All humans are reasoning beings, meaning they have the capability to utilize rational thought, reason, logic, etc. I never said all humans exercise these abilities, just that they have them.

[ August 17, 2003, 23:51: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Slick]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Slick:
Your assumption: a soul has mass.

Dubious at best, and no evidence to support it. Of course, that is fine for satire.

Slick.

Your assumption: there is a soul.

Everything that exists is matter or energy (or something like anti-matter, which is equivalent for purposes of this post). But, matter is energy, and energy is matter. All waves of energy have particle-like properties, such as a mass equivalent property, though it is normally infintesimal. All particles of matter have wave-like properties, though those are normally infintesimal (except for very, very fast moving particles, such as electrons, which are particles, but act more like waves than particles). Thoughts are energy on a quantum level, which exist because of the properties of the neural cells in the brain (which are mass). So, if the soul exists, it is either energy or matter (or one of those other things (such as anti-matter), which are equivalent. Either way, it would have a mass. This is not saying that the post by Ed means anything, just saying that the theoretical soul has a mass value. Of course, proving that the soul actually exists is a much more complex issue. And keep in mind that any arguments akin to "the [holy scripture/person of choice] says we have a soul, so we have a soul" are laughable at best. Any reasoning being can do better than that, and all humans are reasoning beings.

---

The following exists and have neither mass nor energy:

time
space

These are real. Your assumption that if a soul exists, it must be made of mass or energy simply is not provable and thus unfounded. If something existed and was not made of mass or energy, it would be very hard or impossible to observe to humans. That does not make it unreal. It is very arrogant to assume that if a human being cannot observe something (i.e. made of mass or energy) it does not exist.

A thousand years ago, radio waves existed, but they were unobservable and there would have been no way to prove they existed without developing the current technologies. The same is true of many things. Are you saying that we know all there is to know? Are you saying that if you can't observe it, it doesn't exist?

I would like to see you prove that everything that exists is made up of matter or energy.

And, I never assumed there was a soul. Please re-read my post.

edit: There are no "quantum level" effects in the brain. Do you even know what that means? Thoughts and ideas are electro-chemical in nature.

Slick.

[ August 18, 2003, 00:54: Message edited by: Slick ]

[Tigbit]

[quote]Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

What others? Please bring me some pictures from these other dimensions of yours. There is no proof of the existence of other dimensions, only a plethora of hypothesis (no theories, as there is no proof or concrete evidence of them).

Keeping in mind that you did not want theory:

Never heard of the Kaluza-Klein theory or n-dimentional space? Well, very briefly - mathematically n-dimentional space is not only possible but required to make the physical, mathematical constructs science has developed to describe our universe work with every other mathematical construct science has created to help describe our universe. The big bang itself makes complete sense mathematically when using n-dimensional space mathematics. It seems to be the glue that binds it all together.

So there IS some support. It is just unfortunate that the actual "picture" your looking for would require the energies of the entire universe to take. Well, mathematics can pretty much say what you want it to say if you mess with it enough.

So it is still anyone's guess whether there is higher dimensions other than the 3 spacial and 1 temporal that we are used to. While we keep this in mind we still cannot avoid the simple fact that in the grand scope of the universe we don't know a whole lot of anything as it is and anything we know can still be overthrown by a single discovery.



[ August 18, 2003, 01:15: Message edited by: Tigbit ]

[Fyron]

Slick:
Unless it is a dimensional concept (such as space and time), everything that exists either has mass or has mass-like properties. Even energy essentially has mass. Photons have mass, EM radiation has mass-like properties, etc. Please tell me of a non-dimensional concept that exists and has nothing to do with mass.

edit: There are no "quantum level" effects in the brain. Do you even know what that means? Thoughts and ideas are electro-chemical in nature.

Actually, there are. I forget what the name of the study was, but it has been found that there are changes in quantum energy states when thoughts occur. Just what these changes do is unknown, but they are there.

Tigbit:
Yes, I have heard of n-dimensional space. But, is that not just an extension of the 3 spatial dimensions we know and love, and has nothing to do with other planes of existence?