Real World Philospohy

[oleg]

Originally posted by DavidG:
...Mathematics and history? Not really a good comparison. If mom and Dad taught you < insert historical or mathematical fact here > and then you found out a hundred other cultures disagreed with the alledged fact would you not begin to suspect mom and dad were wrong?

if you want to protest to the modern science ideas and conclusions - insert your Christian/Muslim belives here - you should also give up on internet and the very fact I can communicate to you thanks to these Boards that only exist due to the indifatigable progress of physics and mathematics you apparently question. (sorry if I misunderstood you - not for the first time )

[Atrocities]

Originally posted by Atrocities:
Debating about religion is highly over rated IMHO. But believe what you want, tis the only true freedom any of us truly have.

I say it again.

[Jack Simth]

Originally posted by oleg:
if you want to protest to the modern science ideas and conclusions - insert your Christian/Muslim belives here - you should also give up on internet and the very fact I can communicate to you thanks to these Boards that only exist due to the indifatigable progress of physics and mathematics you apparently question. (sorry if I misunderstood you - not for the first time )

That would depend on what ideas and conclusions you are protesting - e.g.: if you don't believe electronics work, you are being silly; If you don't believe in modern Big Bang theory, you can be quite cognizant on it.

For example, If all the mass in the current universe was once pressed into a ball smaller than the black hole thought to be at the center of our galaxy, then the universe shouldn't have ever gone bang - the escape velocity from a black hole (by definition) is in excess of c, which is currently thought to be the speed limit. Any such theory would need to propose one of a number of things to get around this:
1) Modern physical law (or some portion thereof) did not apply at the time
- in which case, the theory needs to also explain where modern physical law came from, why we can't seem to change it, et cetera; besides, such altering of the laws of the universe isn't exactly something that has been observed by what the scientific community would recognize as a reliable source; it requires much speculation based on assumptions - a leap of faith.
2) An as-yet unrecognized force to overpower the super-gravity at such an event, such as "dark energy"
- "dark energy" is a cop-out; it's an unobserved something (reason for the "dark" in the name) thrown in as a correction factor to fix the problem; it's only thought to exist because the universe hasn't collapsed in on itself over the timeframe the universe is thought to have been around. This energy is unobserved; it is required to make certain models work, so it is assumed. Few suggest that there may be a more fundamental flaw in the model. Such a force is also an act of faith.
3) Hesienburg uncertainty allowed things to pop out
- while hypothetically possible, modern QM theory suggests that the probability of at least one particle jumping out of a black hole in a given timeframe is inversly proportional to some power (4, I think it was - I don't recall) of the black hole's mass; more massive -> lower probability. In order to get most the particles in the universe to jump out of the black hole at roughly the same time requires an event of truly negligible probability (if they don't come out at about the same time, all one would get is a bunch of flying particles spread out over zillions of years, too far apart to have a meaningful probability of interacting - no bang, no galaxies, no stars, not even hydrogen). Again, this requires a considerable leap of faith.
4) reserved for future expansion - I'm not all knowing, as far as I know.

There are other severe difficulties with Big Bang theories - current models predict equal amounts of matter and anti-matter, which would quickly annhiliate each other; yet we seem to be made of matter, our galaxy seems to be made of matter, and astronomers can't seem to find any evidence of any anti-matter galaxies to balance us out, to name one.

Of course, now someone is likely to make a faith statment about science, which is likely to go something like "give them time, they will answer all objections" or some such.

[DavidG]

Originally posted by General Woundwort:
FYI - don't try to login to this board while it's displayed in a frame - it won't work.

quote:

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Originally posted by DavidG:
Mathematics and history? Not really a good comparison. If mom and Dad taught you < insert historical or mathematical fact here > and then you found out a hundred other cultures disagreed with the alledged fact would you not begin to suspect mom and dad were wrong?

Depends on the circumstances. If say, 100 years or so, many other cultures thought the world was flat, would that make my belief it was round invalid? No, because good observations and proofs exist for its being round - and I would feel obligated to share that information. Again, it's *evidence*, not nose-counting, that is the determining factor.

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You seem to be implying that there is 'good observations and proofs' for whatever particular religion you believe. So why have so many people got it wrong?

[DavidG]

Originally posted by oleg:

quote:

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Originally posted by DavidG:
...Mathematics and history? Not really a good comparison. If mom and Dad taught you < insert historical or mathematical fact here > and then you found out a hundred other cultures disagreed with the alledged fact would you not begin to suspect mom and dad were wrong?

if you want to protest to the modern science ideas and conclusions - insert your Christian/Muslim belives here - you should also give up on internet and the very fact I can communicate to you thanks to these Boards that only exist due to the indifatigable progress of physics and mathematics you apparently question. (sorry if I misunderstood you - not for the first time )

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Wooah I was not questioning science or math in any way. I was questioning the comparison between learning math and history and learning a religion. Everyone learns the same math and history (and I mean the basic facts here). If I found out that that 75%, 80 90%? of the world learned a different history (and again I'm talking basic facts here like WW2 ended in 1935) I think I'd begin to question what I learned.

[DavidG]

Originally posted by Jack Simth:

2) An as-yet unrecognized force to overpower the super-gravity at such an event, such as "dark energy"
- "dark energy" is a cop-out; it's an unobserved something (reason for the "dark" in the name) thrown in as a correction factor to fix the problem; it's only thought to exist because the universe hasn't collapsed in on itself over the timeframe the universe is thought to have been around. This energy is unobserved; it is required to make certain models work, so it is assumed. Few suggest that there may be a more fundamental flaw in the model. Such a force is also an act of faith.

Isn't that the way physics works? The theoretician makes some theory which has some unobservable element. Then the applied physicists design experiments to attempt to observe those elements thus proving the theory.

Few suggest that there may be a more fundamental flaw in the model.

Thus implying there may be no better theory. if like religion a large majority had different theories then you would have to question it much more.

[ November 09, 2003, 13:15: Message edited by: DavidG ]

[Atrocities]

Real World Philospohy & Relgion

I thought this was an interesting read.

==========================================
God hurts, God scars, God wounds and mars
Any heart not tough nor strong enough
To take a lot of pain, take a lot of pain
God is like a cloud holds a lot of rain
God hurts, ooh, ooh, God hurts

I’m young I know but even so
I know a thing or two I learnt from you
I really learnt a lot, really learnt a lot
God is like a stove burns you when it’s hot
God hurts, mmm, mmm, God hurts

Some fools dream of happiness
Blissfulness, togetherness
Some fools fool themselves I guess
But they’re not fooling me

I know it isn’t true, know it isn’t true
God is just a lie made to make you blue
God hurts, ooh, ooh, God hurts
============================================