Communists on the moon !

[geoschmo]

Good point Cipher. WIth the advances in computer technology and virtual reality, I think we are closer to the day when we can "visit the moon" virtually then we are actually getting there in person. I am speaking from a commercial perspective here. I could easily see people paying a few hundred dollars to sit in an ultra relistic virtual reality booth and getting to control a robotic probe in real time tooling around the surface of the moon. I think it would be pretty cool myself.

[ December 12, 2003, 15:30: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Roanon]

Originally posted by President Elect Shang:
If you Sir think that my friend died, or that my wife is going in harms way because of oil than I submit, that you are only looking at one aspect of a larger picture. If this where “only for oil” than why are we investing the lives of our families to rebuild the country.

Of course it is not that simple, but I think the MAIN reason is money and oil. The reasons for other actions are a mixture of coverup and obscurement - like they faked treaties and intel reports, Bush just cannot openly admit to the world that he is only interested in oil. Plus, there certainly is an actual interest in peace and freedom for Irak, from a few of the actually involved people - after all, most of the time only the top is corrupt and greedy, I consider most of the "normal" people being honest and having good intentions.

But you may not get the complete uncensored picture in US. Here in Germany they have shown reports and films that would never have passed the censorship there. One of them showed soldiers raiding a village in the middle of the night, in search of terrorists of course, but still with brutality and against nothing else than unarmed civilians. Smashing doors and dragging people outside, deporting them away from their families and crying children, probably never to be seen again, without any legal procedure before or anything legal possible afterwards. Arrested without proof, just because of suspected resistance somewhere near. Handcuffed behind their backs with pLastic bands, black hoods drawn over their heads to deprive them of orientation, thrown on the back of a truck where they had to ride for miles on rough bumpy roads, lying helpless on their bellies.

You saw the fear and terror in the faces of the civilians, and the whole scene reminded me of a nazi army raiding an occupied land - and it doesn't matter to these people if their husbands, fathers, and relatives are deported into a nazi concentration camp or to an equally lawless camp in Guantanamo. Don't get me wrong, it was not like the soldiers enjoyed their brutality, but german soldiers executing orders of a nazi general probably didn't either. And the cold and professional brutality gave the whole action an eeary, chilly atmosphere. This certainly was not an action for freedom, regardless of how it was intended, this genereated nothing else than hatred and disgust.

[Roanon]

Originally posted by Loser:
What I'm asking is if you can provide any real proof that the war was over money and/or oil. Just because you can't think of any better reasons doesn't mean they're not out there.

Is there any proof you would accept? Is there any other reason you can present? Or proof?
Of course, nobody can know anything for sure. The theory of relativity has never been proven also, but still it is widely taken as accepted fact.

If you discard the main efforts for money as unintentional or kind of collateral damage, and single out a few isolated incidents and generalize them, you can prove everything and nothing.

Remember, I didn't start this discussion. There was someone stating that this war was for freedom. You never asked him to prove his statement, why?
I am sick that these obvious lies are accepted face-on, and that someone pointing out the obvious has to prove it beyond every unreasonable doubt. I *may* be wrong, but that this war is for freedom certainly *is* wrong.

Last posting here, I don't want to escalate it further and I am more angry than I should be when posting. And, as I said before, it is utterly useless to point out facts to someone who wants to believe in an alternate reality.

[Cyrien]

Double Post

[ December 12, 2003, 16:18: Message edited by: Cyrien ]

[Cyrien]

And I suppose that you know that all of these people were unarmed civilians. You have all of the intel that may have been available to those that made the decision. Many things done in military actions that are 100% legitimate look horrid and awful and evil to us as civilians. Perhaps as awfull as the terror tactics being used by the enemy. As awfull as small children having bombs strapped to their chests during Vietnam and told to go play around a US barracks while it is detonated by someone the child trusted? Do things that the other side do forgive what our side does to counter it? No. But put it in its context. Because context is everything when viewing the events of a war. Putting black hoods over the heads of people that were obviously suspected of something is no where near as bad as carting off millions of people to concentration camps for systematic extermination.

Have you asked several important questions? How many of the people where carted off? All of them? I doubt it. How many such raids are there?

As for those wanting to see the blood cost of Iraq before the US stepped in. This is the Iran Iraq war alone. Widespread use of chemical agents against civilian populations. Cruise misile strikes against civilian targets open bombing against civilian sites.

Casualty figures are highly uncertain, though estimates suggest more than one and a half million war and war-related casualties -- perhaps as many as a million people died, many more were wounded, and millions were made refugees. Iraq's victory was not without cost. The Iraqis suffered an estimated 375,000 casualties, the equivalent of 5.6 million for a population the size of the United States. Another 60,000 were taken prisoner by the Iranians. Iran's losses may have included more than 1 million people killed or maimed. The war claimed at least 300,000 Iranian lives and injured more than 500,000.

As for Kuwait:

An estimated number of 439 foreign nationals, 118 Kuwaiti soldiers and 113 Kuwaiti civilians were killed. Kuwait’s human loss was proportionately equivalent to about 400,000 Americans or 100,000 British.
The widespread landmines, estimated to be 2 million (92.4 mines per square kilometre or 1.1 mine per Kuwaiti), left many more dead and physically disabled.


And Amnesty International reported:
Methods of Iraqi torture included -
The methods included fracturing limbs and ribs, administration of electric shocks, burning naked body parts, pouring acid into the eyes eventually leading to blindness, subjecting victims to mock trials, etc. The Iraqis denied medical care to the Kuwaitis unless they changed their nationality to Iraq, a clear case of human rights violation.

[ December 12, 2003, 16:20: Message edited by: Cyrien ]

[Loser]

Whoops, didn't mean to put that here.

[ December 12, 2003, 16:27: Message edited by: Loser ]

[President_Elect_Shang]

Roanan wouldn’t it be nice if it was simple, then we could avoid war altogether and work on something else, such as Mars or even going back to the moon. Do I think oil and money are involved, yes, no HELL YES! I only asked that we not try to equate lost lives to oil, that would be the approximate of placing oil above lives. Some politicians may be doing that now with this war. In that case let use ask about oil and the deficit we are running up, or to elections that we can change, or even to letters that can be written to Congressmen and Representatives calling for this to stop.
Maybe in Germany you are getting reports that would not be shown here, but is your wife the one going? Are you getting more information from the news, or just altered information? Altered by the press I might add, as if they have ever given a straight picture. What information am I getting since I have for all intents and purposes a front row seat, you don’t. As far as the legality of this war, man that is an entire debate on its own, start another thread before you try to open that can of worms.
Finally you say “You saw the fear and terror in the faces of the civilians” what about 911, my point is you are right. Yes I said you are right, but you are not seeing the whole picture. Did you see the faces of the Kuwait’s that where raped, beaten, and killed by Saddam’s troops? I DID! Don’t preach about the wrong doings of one people unless you have thought about the why those people are acting that way. War is violence, point blank; the Army of ANY nation is a sword, not a scalpel. Also please NEVER compare the troops of my country or any other to the Nazi’s, no one who has troops in the area at present are attempting GENOCIDE.

[ December 12, 2003, 17:20: Message edited by: President Elect Shang ]