Unusual New Propulsion Idea

[Karibu]

I think that taking account combat initiative like in MOO2 would be one good way to do it. There the highest initiative moves first no matter if it's the defender or attacker. In SEV initiative could be calculated using engine level, ship experience, fleet experience, cloacking, other bonuses (like shrines or such), racial attack- and defence bonus, etc. (if SEV is anything like SEIV).

Also another way would be like in Ufo Aftermath, where you issue orders to every individual of your group in paused mode, and then you put time running. When any ony of your unit has either done the task you gave it or it is interrupted some way, the time stops and you can then give new orders if necessary. However, in multiplayer games this kind of battles would require a hotseat game (players can see and talk to each other) to work battle properly and without time consuming waiting.

I believe that there is propably other good ways to do real time combat, but I have yet to see them. Also voicing out my suspicion that SEV real time combat would be like in MOO3 or in Starcraft is justified because that same mistake has been made again and again by respectable game houses (like Microprose before, now Atari). only because it is easier than invent something working. Also I remember it all too well reading in MOO3 forums from right out the horses mouth one of the lead developers said:"We would not do real time combat if it would not be the right thing to do for this game".

Also, they abandoned game after 2 patches and left it crippled, yet somehow playable. I don't say this is the situation in Malfador (actually I am pleasantly surprised how well SEIV is supported), but hearing of real time combat in strategy games cause me stomach ache.

Karibu has spoken.

[Captain Kwok]

Space Empires V needs to have a real-time combat system where all the ships are moving at the same time.

The game for certain MUST remain turn-based - but using real time combat in place of the current strategic combat will solve all sorts of player's pet peeves re: iniative, who gets first shot etc, and will go a long way to evening out combat.

Of course, the ship strategies must work very well to maximize this system so I think a lot of work will need to be done in this area.

Like Fyron suggested, solo game "tactical combat" could be paused to issue additional orders (like target priorities, withdrawl, etc) and then unpaused. I don't imagine it turning into a clickfest as long as the strategies work well and require minimal user input. It will also help resolve tactical much faster as well.

You cannot compare Star Fury to combat in SE:V, because Star Fury focuses on a single ship and requires a lot more direct user input and so is more clicky by nature. i.e. Fire weapons bank 1 at ship X and then weapons 2 at ship Y, switching targets etc. Tactical combat in SE:V would be more of setting target priorities (nearest, most damaged,etc), holding formations, and things of that sort.

[Fyron]

like Microprose before, now Atari

When did Microprose ever make a strategy game with real time combat? MOO3 was made by QuikSilver and had nothing to do with Microprose... MOO and MOO2 were made by Simtex, and just published by Microprose.

I think that taking account combat initiative like in MOO2 would be one good way to do it.

That system is still flawed. Any system where a ship gets to take its entire action before any other ship can do anything is highly unrealistic. Real time combat takes the initiative type systems a step further.

Also another way would be like in Ufo Aftermath, where you issue orders to every individual of your group in paused mode, and then you put time running.

Which is exactly what I had described earlier, except that real time execution also has the nice feature of eliminating all of the other idiosyncrosies of turn based combat.

[ February 09, 2004, 16:23: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Karibu]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

quote:

---

like Microprose before, now Atari

When did Microprose ever make a strategy game with real time combat? MOO3 was made by QuikSilver and had nothing to do with Microprose... MOO and MOO2 were made by Simtex, and just published by Microprose.

---

Okay, I may be wrong in this. I remembered that MOO1&2 were made by Microprose. Also I know that Quicksilver made MOO3, but Atari bought Quicksilver and cut all support from MOO3. Who knows, perhaps they had some revolutionary idea but it never saw daylight because of this. I assumed that Microprose had become into Quicksilver. Perhaps it just bought rights from Simtex.

quote:

---

I think that taking account combat initiative like in MOO2 would be one good way to do it.

That system is still flawed. Any system where a ship gets to take its entire action before any other ship can do anything is highly unrealistic. Real time combat takes the initiative type systems a step further.

---

I didin't say it wasn't perfect. Only that it is best of current ways to simulate real time combat when you take into account playability in multiplayer. I still stand behind this. Real time is ideal if you just find the way to control it without it getting into clicking feast. Please, tell us if you know one.

quote:

---

Also another way would be like in Ufo Aftermath, where you issue orders to every individual of your group in paused mode, and then you put time running.

Which is exactly what I had described earlier, except that real time execution also has the nice feature of eliminating all of the other idiosyncrosies of turn based combat.

---

yet again I agree. If only there would be way to control real time combat properly in multiplayer. In Ufo Aftermath you can stop and think during tactical combat when ever you feel like. This is not an option in multiplayer (but single player games it would be quite nice feature). Even if you would play this kind of combat at the same computer with your opponent, it would be constant "okay, I moved my ship 0,5 seconds and your ship just spotted my ship. Now it is your turn. ... Okay, I moved my 45th ship and one of your hudred fighterGroups spotted it. Your turn...".

[Fyron]

Okay, I may be wrong in this. I remembered that MOO1&2 were made by Microprose. Also I know that Quicksilver made MOO3, but Atari bought Quicksilver and cut all support from MOO3. Who knows, perhaps they had some revolutionary idea but it never saw daylight because of this. I assumed that Microprose had become into Quicksilver. Perhaps it just bought rights from Simtex.

Microprose was bought out by Hasborg (or Hasbro... ), who did not interfere too much. Civ 2 ToT was released under Hasborg dominion. Then Hasborg was by by Infogrames, who lead to the abomination that is Civ 3. Then Infogrames was bought out by Atari. I am not entirely sure where Quiksilver was from, but I think that Simtex was some sort of subdivision of the overal Microprose company, which had lots of different developers under it. So the rights to MOO were transfered with the ownership of Microprose.

I didin't say it wasn't perfect. Only that it is best of current ways to simulate real time combat when you take into account playability in multiplayer. I still stand behind this. Real time is ideal if you just find the way to control it without it getting into clicking feast. Please, tell us if you know one.

I did tell you the ideal way.

Multiplayer has combat executed strategically without player intervention (PBEM), so what does it matter how it is executed in multiplayer, as long as it makes sense and it works? For hotseat you can have it forcibly do the auto-pause after X seconds method, and give each player the chance to revise/issue orders, just as if they were doing single player. It would still work great with real time combat. You would have to have the players agree to how long combat is executed before the "pausing phase", either at game setup or for each combat. Having both modes possible when you create a game (pick which one will be in effect the entire game) would be the optimal solution. Now if a proper TCP/IP mode is introduced for SEV, you can use the auto pause after X seconds feature exactly the same way as in hotseat. No clickfesting is involved in any mode, at all, unless all parties involved choose to play without the auto-pause after X seconds feature and introduce clickfesting.

[Fyron]

Just had a thought: make it take a few "seconds" (not real secondds, but whatever time measure is used by the real time engine) to charge up weapons at the beginning of combat, so you can't fire in the first 3 "seconds" or whatever. Then, ships defending a warp point could start with their weapons already charged, so you get to ambush people coming through! This would be just as it works now for warp point, where defenders get to go first. But with simultaneous real time exectution, noone gets to "move first." For other battles, the 3 "second" delay will be passed long before ships engage each other.

[Ed Kolis]

Wouldn't someone who's attacking a warp point and expecting an ambush have his weapons charged as well?