OT:splendid WWII movie you'll never see:(

[The Frans]

Hi,

Thanks that we may check it ourselves, but to be honnest. My russin isn't that good lately

But without kidding, very interesting discussion.

I agree with unknown Enemy, It is very hard to understand or imagine what the russian people had to endure.

I for myself life in the Netherlands (west of germany) That country was overrun by the Nazi's in only 4 days. And even I could see the damage they left, when I was 10 years old (35 years after the war ended)

So imagine how great the russian damage and disaster must be after 3 or 4 years of full scale war.

Intimidator (Frans)

[Aiken]

Originally posted by The Frans:
Hi,

Thanks that we may check it ourselves, but to be honnest. My russin isn't that good lately

Intimidator (Frans)

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...p=ru_en&tt=url

Babelfish is really useful resource

[Unknown_Enemy]

Originally posted by aiken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Frans:
Hi,

Thanks that we may check it ourselves, but to be honnest. My russin isn't that good lately

Intimidator (Frans)

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...p=ru_en&tt=url

Babelfish is really useful resource

---

I cannot find yet data about the number of axis casualties on eastern from, but for germany it amounted more to the 3 500 000.

http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/W/World-War-II.htm

Problem is, I cannot find the bielo-russian / georgians casualties while fighting on the german side, but it was massive but not really fit on the official history.

(no punt intended, just history)

[Aiken]

Originally posted by Unknown_Enemy:
I cannot find yet data about the number of axis casualties on eastern from, but for germany it amounted more to the 3 500 000.

http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/W/World-War-II.htm

Problem is, I cannot find the bielo-russian / georgians casualties while fighting on the german side, but it was massive but not really fit on the official history.

(no punt intended, just history)

Sorry for that link I provided. For some reason babelfish translate only 1/3 of document.
About German casualties: Eastern Front (22.6.1941-9.5.1945)
Total: 7181.1 thousands
|-Dead: 3604.8
|-Was taken prisoner: 3576.3
+ 1 591 125 taken prisoner after 9.5.1941 so total casualties = 8772,2 thousands.

Searching for information about national legions

Aha. 25000 Georgians - part of Turkic Legion.
70000 Byelorussians - most of them (47000) served as "Hilfswillige" (voluntary assistant) in occupied territories.
Where was no massive deaths amongst them, most part of all legioners gave up.

[ February 14, 2004, 21:11: Message edited by: aiken ]

[oleg]

...
20 Million Russians and 2.5 Million Germans.
An amazing 8-1 ratio! This is over the whole war.
Think of what the ratio had to be at the start.
And the Germans LOST...

.. [/QB]

20 Millions is an estimate of total casualties, including civilians. In Leningrad alone 900 000 civilians died during the siege because of hunger and cold. Many other ciites were bombed to 90% when bothe armies went back anf forth. For example, civilian casulties in Stalingrad are estimated 200 000. No one know for sure, a lot of people were evacuated but not all.

[Unknown_Enemy]

Here are some numbers with the source that provided them.
Hum, wait a minute.
Did I said it ?
....
Yes I did.
I said Numbers. Not humans, not soldiers or fathers, just numbers. Sometime, in the heat of a discussion, we forget what we are talking about : the death by violent means of millions of people.


# Union of Soviet Socialist Republics

* Military:
o Info. Please: 6,115,000 (all causes)
o Compton's: 6,750,000
o Keegan: 7,000,000
o Small & Singer: 7,500,000
o Eckhardt: 7,500,000
o Davies: 8,000,000 to 9,000,000
o Mazower: 3M POWs through starvation + 6.5M in battle = 9.5M
o Urlanis: 10,000,000
o Volkogonov: 10,000,000
o Ellis: 11,000,000
o Britannica: 11,000,000
o Encarta: 13,000,000
o Kinder: 13,600,000
o Wallechinsky: 13,600,000
o HarperCollins: 14,500,000
o 30 Apr. 1994 Guardian: 22M
o Steven Shabad
+ Sokolov's new calculations: 26.4M
+ Gorbachev's official est.: 8,668,000 Red Army dead
o MEDIAN: 10M
* Civilian:
o Compton's: 6M
o Ellis: 6,700,000
o Britannica: 7,000,000
o HarperCollins: 7,000,000
o Encarta: 7,000,000
o Kinder: 7,000,000
o Keegan: 7,000,000
o Eckhardt: 7,500,000
o Mazower: 10M
o Urlanis: 10,000,000
o Steven Shabad (citing Sokolov): 16.9M
o Davies: 16,000,000 to 19,000,000
o 30 Apr. 1994 Guardian: 18M
o MEDIAN: 7M
* Total:
o Compton's: 12.75M
o Keegan: 14M
o Eckhardt: 15M
o Ellis: 17.7M
o Britannica: 18M
o Mazower: 19.5M
o Encarta: 20M
o Messenger: 20M
o Urlanis: 20M
o Kinder: 20.6M
o HarperCollins: 21.5M
o Wallechinsky: 20-26M
o Davies: 24M to 28M
o Volkogonov, Dmitri, Stalin: Triumph and Tragedy (1991): 26-27M
o Hochschild: 27M
o 30 Apr. 1994 Guardian: 40M
o Steven Shabad
+ Sokolov's new calculations: 43.3M
+ Stalin's official public est.: 7M dead
+ Khrushchev's official est.: 20M
+ Gorbachev's official est.: 27M
o Barbarossa, the Axis and the Allies, by John Erickson and David Dilks: 49M (acc2 book review: Agence France Presse, 16 June 1994)
o MEDIAN: 20M

[Intimidator]

The fact is UE. It's a lot easier to think of it in numbers rather than human beings.

Intimidator,