OT:splendid WWII movie you'll never see:(

[oleg]

...
20 Million Russians and 2.5 Million Germans.
An amazing 8-1 ratio! This is over the whole war.
Think of what the ratio had to be at the start.
And the Germans LOST...

.. [/QB]

20 Millions is an estimate of total casualties, including civilians. In Leningrad alone 900 000 civilians died during the siege because of hunger and cold. Many other ciites were bombed to 90% when bothe armies went back anf forth. For example, civilian casulties in Stalingrad are estimated 200 000. No one know for sure, a lot of people were evacuated but not all.

[Unknown_Enemy]

Here are some numbers with the source that provided them.
Hum, wait a minute.
Did I said it ?
....
Yes I did.
I said Numbers. Not humans, not soldiers or fathers, just numbers. Sometime, in the heat of a discussion, we forget what we are talking about : the death by violent means of millions of people.


# Union of Soviet Socialist Republics

* Military:
o Info. Please: 6,115,000 (all causes)
o Compton's: 6,750,000
o Keegan: 7,000,000
o Small & Singer: 7,500,000
o Eckhardt: 7,500,000
o Davies: 8,000,000 to 9,000,000
o Mazower: 3M POWs through starvation + 6.5M in battle = 9.5M
o Urlanis: 10,000,000
o Volkogonov: 10,000,000
o Ellis: 11,000,000
o Britannica: 11,000,000
o Encarta: 13,000,000
o Kinder: 13,600,000
o Wallechinsky: 13,600,000
o HarperCollins: 14,500,000
o 30 Apr. 1994 Guardian: 22M
o Steven Shabad
+ Sokolov's new calculations: 26.4M
+ Gorbachev's official est.: 8,668,000 Red Army dead
o MEDIAN: 10M
* Civilian:
o Compton's: 6M
o Ellis: 6,700,000
o Britannica: 7,000,000
o HarperCollins: 7,000,000
o Encarta: 7,000,000
o Kinder: 7,000,000
o Keegan: 7,000,000
o Eckhardt: 7,500,000
o Mazower: 10M
o Urlanis: 10,000,000
o Steven Shabad (citing Sokolov): 16.9M
o Davies: 16,000,000 to 19,000,000
o 30 Apr. 1994 Guardian: 18M
o MEDIAN: 7M
* Total:
o Compton's: 12.75M
o Keegan: 14M
o Eckhardt: 15M
o Ellis: 17.7M
o Britannica: 18M
o Mazower: 19.5M
o Encarta: 20M
o Messenger: 20M
o Urlanis: 20M
o Kinder: 20.6M
o HarperCollins: 21.5M
o Wallechinsky: 20-26M
o Davies: 24M to 28M
o Volkogonov, Dmitri, Stalin: Triumph and Tragedy (1991): 26-27M
o Hochschild: 27M
o 30 Apr. 1994 Guardian: 40M
o Steven Shabad
+ Sokolov's new calculations: 43.3M
+ Stalin's official public est.: 7M dead
+ Khrushchev's official est.: 20M
+ Gorbachev's official est.: 27M
o Barbarossa, the Axis and the Allies, by John Erickson and David Dilks: 49M (acc2 book review: Agence France Presse, 16 June 1994)
o MEDIAN: 20M

[Intimidator]

The fact is UE. It's a lot easier to think of it in numbers rather than human beings.

Intimidator,

[gregebowman]

First of all, although you may not hear about foreign films being available in the states, I know for a fact that they are. Suncoast Motion Picture has a few. I even bought a German film called Stalingrad, about the events there as seen through the eyes of the German troops. Very interesting film. I'm just glad I wasn't there. If this PQ-17 film ever makes it to the states in dvd form, I'll buy it.

Speaking of this PQ-17, I admit I know nothing about it. In my teen years, I was an avid reader when it came to WWII. I must have read everythig in my high school library on the subject. But I don't remember reading about this. It's a shame, though, that the escorts ran when they could have at least made a try at defending the convoy. But if I was the commander, and I saw the Tirpitz, I might run too. Hard to tell what one will do unless you're in that position.

But speaking of Russians and tragedy, there's an event that happened at the end of the war that should make some Russians ashamed. There was a passenger ship, whose name I can't remember, crammed full of over 10,000 fleeing Germans, mostly civilians. I can't recall which body of water it was, but the ship was either torpedoed or shelled, and sank, killing most of those 10,000. This is a tragedy far greater than the Titanic, yet no one ever talks about it. I've only seen a couple of references to it in some of those books I used to read.

[ February 16, 2004, 13:31: Message edited by: gregebowman ]

[Unknown_Enemy]

Originally posted by gregebowman:
First of all, although you may not hear about foreign films being available in the states, I know for a fact that they are. Suncoast Motion Picture has a few. I even bought a German film called Stalingrad, about the events there as seen through the eyes of the German troops. Very interesting film. I'm just glad I wasn't there. If this PQ-17 film ever makes it to the states in dvd form, I'll buy it.

Speaking of this PQ-17, I admit I know nothing about it. In my teen years, I was an avid reader when it came to WWII. I must have read everythig in my high school library on the subject. But I don't remember reading about this. It's a shame, though, that the escorts ran when they could have at least made a try at defending the convoy. But if I was the commander, and I saw the Tirpitz, I might run too. Hard to tell what one will do unless you're in that position.

But speaking of Russians and tragedy, there's an event that happened at the end of the war that should make some Russians ashamed. There was a passenger ship, whose name I can't remember, crammed full of over 10,000 fleeing Germans, mostly civilians. I can't recall which body of water it was, but the ship was either torpedoed or shelled, and sank, killing most of those 10,000. This is a tragedy far greater than the Titanic, yet no one ever talks about it. I've only seen a couple of references to it in some of those books I used to read.

For the Allied, civilians ships were as much a target as military. In fact, civilian belongings that could (even barely) be used by military were deemed legitimate targets for all involved countries. It is only AFTER the end of WW2 that was developped this guilt about civilian casualties.

[oleg]

It was Wilghelm Gustloff. Sank January 30, 1945, around 4 a.m. with the loss of more than 5000 lives.

Here is a short story: http://www.militaryhistoryOnline.com...mgustloff.aspx

But how could Marinescu knew it was passenger liner with 6000 refuges ? Complete darkeness, 4 am in winter, large enemy convoy in sight...

[ February 16, 2004, 16:16: Message edited by: oleg ]

[Intimidator]

Oleg,

You don't have to justify the fact that they killed civilians.
A lot, and I mean A LOT, of mistakes where made in WOII at both sides.

As I told before I life in the Netherlands, in the city of Nymegen. 20 km south of Arnhem (Market garden !!)

The US. bombed Nymegen in 1944, because they thought it was the German town : Kleve
I can tell you they missed Kleve by 27 km !!

But lucky for us the town of Nymegen now posses a Square called : Square 1944 (is no joke)

Intimidator , (Frans)