OT: Election 2004

[atari_eric]

Originally posted by Renegade 13:
So um....are you going to tell us up front whose opinion you agree with?

Actually, I happened to agree with your post about the willfully elected leaders... I just chose to be quiet about it at the time.

Forgive me if I seem cryptic with my post - it is appearing to me that expressing one's political nature (if it's against the current administration) is becoming more and more dangerous.

[dogscoff]

7. We know Iraq had weapons of mass destruction

Yes, once upon a time. However the ones unnaccounted for would have degraded beyond use years ago.

10. Therefore they are no longer compling [with what UN has told them to do]

Israel has been defying the UN for decades. Should the US invade them as well?

13. US led coalition frees the Iraqi people from a very evil dictator and will soon hopefully get a solid government setup and leave

Yeah, but the US did a crap job of it. They went in there and blew some **** up, that's fine, but they had no police force ready to pick up the pieces. They stood back and watched for a week or two while looters ripped the cities apart (apart from the oil ministry- they protected that from day 1). Then suddenly they took to shooting any civilians who looked even slightly suspicious on sight, fuelling revenge attacks and hatred.

And I've seen the footage of this, it ain''t pretty. I saw a documentary, and I watched an armoured car drive down the street at speed, shooting a guy who was just stood on the pavement. People drag him into a shop, but blood is pouring out of a hole in his head like water out of a tap. 5 US troops repeatedly kick a teenage boy who is lying on the floor, apparently he was caught shoplifting. Iraqi women look on in disgust from balconies. You wonder why they hate the US? Half of these so-called terrorist attacks against US soldiers in Iraq now are just ppl trying to avenge relatives who were killed without any particular provocation by US troops after the supposed "end of hostilities". Sure, Saddam was worse, but the US are trying to set themselves up as the good guys. The whole thing couldn't have been handled worse, and now the US will have to stay in even longer until it all calms back down. It's almost as if that's what bush wanted from the start.

1 problem with [bush] in office and that is the Patriot Act.

That alone should be enough to put you off him. The Partiot act stripped away many of the fundamental rights and priveleges that differentiate America from, say, Iraq under Saddam Hussein. And that was just the foot in the door. Patriot act II is coming...

soon we will have two stright men that live together asking for the same rights or one guy and his 3 wives or even weirder situations.

Yeah... what's your point?

There are not a lot of people struggling to adopt ... Gay Marriage:

Allow gays to marry, and give them the same adoption rights as hetero married couples. That will increase the number of potential adoptive parrents. Two birds, one stone=-)


Lord Chane: Right on mate. Joachim too, I agree.

the slavery debate...

There's still a debate about it???

I fear for this country. And Hilary makes me even more scared.

That sums it up, really. Bush has got you scared. He's got you so scared you'll let him do whatever the hell he likes. Strip away your civil liberties? Sure. Send your countrymen with your tax money to invade other countries for the benefit of your oil-industry buddies? No problem, just pull the covers over my head for me and protect me from the monsters under my bed.

There are Groups out there that hate the free world and are moving to destroy us. And so far Bush is the only candidate who has done something and stands his ground.

There was no link between Al-Qaeda and Iraq. That war was fought for other reasons, as was the war on Afghanistan. Most of the 11/9 hijackers were Saudis. Osama Bin Laden is a Saudi. A Saudi Prince, in fact, although he did work for the CIA for a while.
Most of the fanatical US-hating arabs you are so scared of in this world are- you guessed it- Saudi. Al-Qaeda is funded with Saudi money- lots of it, because the Saudi royal family is very very rich. So why hasn't the US attacked Saudi Arabia? Why isn't Saudi Arabia part of Bush's 'axis of evil'? Good questions with answers that might surprise you. I'll let you look up the answers for yourself.

But I digress...
Bush and his crew wanted an oil pipeline across Afghanistan. It says so in the PNAC, which is publicly available and predates 11/9/2001. A year or two before the the US attacked the Taliban, Bush's buddies were putting them up in 5-star hotels in Texas to try to get the pipeline ligitimately, but the Taliban weren't interested. So Bush invaded under the smokescreen of his "war on terror".
It's much the same story with Iraq. The PNAC says America must control Iraq and suddenly- hey presto- Iraq is not some broken-down little regime starving to death under international sanctions, it's a huge, scary bogeyman with weapons of mass destruction and links to AL-Qaeda that must be invaded immediately for the sake of world security.

we are at the beginning of the next World War

Only if you let Bush continue to push everyone toward it.

[Renegade 13]

Originally posted by atari_eric:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Renegade 13:
So um....are you going to tell us up front whose opinion you agree with?

Actually, I happened to agree with your post about the willfully elected leaders... I just chose to be quiet about it at the time.

Forgive me if I seem cryptic with my post - it is appearing to me that expressing one's political nature (if it's against the current administration) is becoming more and more dangerous.

---

Please, tell us your opinions. They are valued, and help me attain better understanding of political situations.

[dogscoff]

it is appearing to me that expressing one's political nature (if it's against the current administration) is becoming more and more dangerous.

All the more reason to speak up now while you still can!

[Perrin]

Originally posted by dogscoff:

quote:

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we are at the beginning of the next World War

Only if you let Bush continue to push everyone toward it. [/QB]

---

I am sorry but I disagree. In the 90's they tried to blow up the World Trade Center with a bomb. They only did damage. On 9/11 they finally succeeded in destroying the building and killing many Americans. And do not forget what happened to the USS Cole. If you can not see that these are the actions of War then there is nothing I can say to convince you. However hiding our heads in the sand will not make it go away. George Bush is not pushing us to War he is responding to War.

I would like to see all Terrorist put out of Business no matter where or what nationality. And since they are willing to kill themselves to kill us (or our allies) then the only thing we can do is kill them before they kill us.

[Will]

Originally posted by dogscoff:

quote:

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the slavery debate...

There's still a debate about it???

---

No, that was my point There *was* a debate about slavery, with it's peak in the US around the mid 1800's. And now there isn't, except among a few white-supremacy loonies. I was just trying to say, times change, and things will not always be as they are now. Marriage will still be about love and a partnership between two people. It just won't necessarily be two of the opposite sex.

[Ragnarok-X]

Originally posted by dogscoff:
we are at the beginning of the next World War

Originally posted by Perrin:


I am sorry but I disagree. In the 90's they tried to blow up the World Trade Center with a bomb. They only did damage. On 9/11 they finally succeeded in destroying the building and killing many Americans. And do not forget what happened to the USS Cole. If you can not see that these are the actions of War then there is nothing I can say to convince you. However hiding our heads in the sand will not make it go away. George Bush is not pushing us to War he is responding to War.

I would like to see all Terrorist put out of Business no matter where or what nationality. And since they are willing to kill themselves to kill us (or our allies) then the only thing we can do is kill them before they kill us.

Heck are you actually KNOWING what you are writing ?
Bush. Bush.

See you once provided nations! with weapons, maybe even weapons of mass destruction.
You supported them, just for you own reaons.
You decided to supress nations, states, poeple. Man, Women, Children.
The USA has lost many of its former friends.
YEARS of surpressment, violence and hatred and you morrons actually WONDER why you are being bombed ?
You friggin forced it. The border had been reached.
HECK OPEN YOUR EYES FS. STOP LOOKING TV ALL THE TIME. LOOK AT THE WORLD, LOOK HOW THE WORLD REALLY IS !!! FS

Your Gouverments is doing friggin EVERYTHING to make you poor people stay dumb and NOT open your eyes. Most parts of the world are feeling ANGER toward your nation, weither it be civilians or soldiers.
You break treaties, you declare war without asking the world council (UN etc). You are breaking rules.
You force others to join your war. FORCE.
You kill innocent people. You are not at war because of terrorists, but because of RESSOURCES.
Because your Gouverment thinks it can establish a new world order. You try to control other. You are actually controlling others.
Your Gouverment is controlling YOU.
Poeple are dieing each day because YOU decide so. How can you let that happen ?!?
Iraq's weapons of mass destruction ?!? WHERE ARE THEY ?! WHERE ?!!!! Face it, Iraq wasnt attacked because of "Americas" Security, but rather because of Oil.
I cant stand it, wars being fought because of such stupid things.
You destroy buildings in Iraq. Now you are even asking the other countries to lower the depth that iraq has. HUH ?!?! I mean come on, am i dreaming ?

Now listen, im honest.
If i had the chance to actually -kill- Bush, believe me, i would.
Im no killer, neither a terrorits, now a fanatist.
Its just that i try i would try to make a better world. For my children, even for your children. For everyone, for a better world.
I wouldnt matter what would happen to me, as long as the world would continue peacefully, people being more happy than they are now.

Your Gouverment is destroying the entire world, is infecting it with propaganda, with anger, with fear, with weapons, with stupid politics.

Your Gouverment must be stopped. I cant believe millions of americans are not seeing what is happening. How dumb are you people ? Its unbelieveable, now its just sad, how the world is going towards its end.

[geoschmo]

Ragnarok-x, can I suggest you edit your Last post please. It makes it appear that Dogscoff said something that he actually did not say. He was quoting something said by someone else in the process of disagreeing with it.

[Perrin]

Well I can see where you are coming from. There is as much propaganda in your words as you accuse me of having.

See you once provided nations! with weapons, maybe even weapons of mass destruction.
You supported them, just for you own reasons.
You decided to suppress nations, states, people.

I agree this has all happened at one time or another. You are from Germany shall we discuss your history as well?

The USA has lost many of its former friends.

Debatable. Were they true friends or we they also serving there own interests?

You break treaties, you declare war without asking the world council (UN etc).

How can you say this when we asked and pleaded with the UN to enforce its own resolutions its own rulings. We waited months we even gave Sadam a chance to comply with the resolutions that he agreed to with his own signature. You supposition is preposterous.

You force others to join your war. FORCE.

How? Where? Who? Bah! Edit: The only 'others' that you could even possibly claim would be Iraq itself. Other than that we have forced no one. Have we demanded that France and Germany honor NATO? No.

Because your Government thinks it can establish a new world order. You try to control other. You are actually controlling others.

More propaganda. Never in its history has America conquered another nation. Is Japan or your Germany under our rule?

[ March 25, 2004, 17:09: Message edited by: Perrin ]

[AMF]

RE: (Originally posted by Perrin)

"Never in its history has America conquered another nation. Is Japan or your Germany under our rule?

Flag on the play. Ever been to the Phllipines? And, heck, depending on how far back you want to go, you could call all of "Manifest Destiny" colonialism pure and simple. Ever been to Hawai'i? How about Puerto Rico?