OT: Canadian Federal Election

[David E. Gervais]

Well, I'll be quick and to the point,..

Background Info: I live in Quebec and consider myself 100% Canadian. (FYI: An elglish speaking Canadian living in Quebec is at best a second class citizen and at worst we have the right to remain silent, anything we say can and will be used against us by the language police.)

Thoughts on the upcomming election,..

What about Paul Martin? (Liberal Leader) Well, I have nothing good to say about a man who goes out of his way to lie or avoid telling the truth. But maybe I shouldn't be too hard on him, he is a politician after all, and it's in their nature to be like that.

What about Gilles Duceppe? (Bloq Leader) Well, no federal politition should be allowed to run for Prime Minister of CANADA if all they have is a 'Provincial' adgenda. All Gilles talks about is making Quebec better off. But HELLO! Quebec is just one provence, he has yet to show any real interest in the rest of Canada. Not exactly my idea of what the Prime Minister of Canada should be.

What about Stephen Harper? (Conservative Leader) This one is easy,.. any politician that lists "Lower Taxes" as part of his campaign promises should be disgarded with extreme prejudice. The term "Lower Taxes" has allways proven to be the exact opposite. Don't believe me? Ok, vote for him, and when your taxes go up send an extra 3% my way for giving you this warning.

What about Jack Layton? (NDP Leader) Well, he walks, talks and acts like a very bad used car salesman. I just can't see myself buying anything from him. He's against the privatization of healthcare. Well, if you look at it as a way to replace the current healthcare then I'd have to agree. But if it is put in place to 'suppliment' the current healthcare. To give the people that pay high health insurance (Blue Cross etc, or happen to be in the middle to high income bracket) the option of going to a private hospital for their care. Well, I see no reason to prohibit that option. If all or most of the 'insured/rich' people went to private hospitals, the immediate effect would be to reduce waiting times in our current over-crowded hospitals. Canada's healthcare system is in serious trouble, spending wads of money to pay for 'overtime' in our hospitals to offset the long waiting periods is going to lead to dire consequences. We can't keep asking our healthcare givers to work 60+ hours/week indefinately. Eventually it will lead to burnout. The entire system will then collapse.(I'm sorry if I got a bit too verbose on this issue, but all four candidates don't seem to realise the gravity of our healthcare situation.)

So, with all this said, who am I going to vote for? Martin? Duceppe? Harper? Layton? Well, I guess there is no good choice this time, so I'll probably vote Liberal. The logic behind this is that although things will still get worse, I think they will get worse at a slightly slower pace with the Liberals. And, I can only hope that in 4 years my choices are better and a new candidate arrives with Canada's well being as his/her top priority.

I usually stay away from political threads, but I felt that it was about time you all got a better idea of my political views.

Have a great day, Cheers!

[ June 19, 2004, 11:34: Message edited by: David E. Gervais ]

[TerranC]

Originally posted by Renegade 13:
There are a couple of big reasons why I would vote Conservative:

#2: Their platform doesn't call for huge spending, like the NDP's does. Have you seen the figures?? 65 Billion in new spending. How are they going to get it back? TAXES!

Any party that will actually try to upgrade our armed forces will have to spend huge; after the conservatives get new uniforms, new recon vehicles (to replace the paper-thin Bombardier Iltis jeeps), new recon planes and boats for our coast guard, and new helicopters to replace the sea kings for our navy, they say they will try to get an amphibious assult vessle, then they'll probably try to get new planes for our air force, and then some. What do you think the bill will come to after all that? At least the NDP's being honest about it.

[tesco samoa]

and plus i do not think we need to upgrade our armed forces... just cut back on our commitments...

[Renegade 13]

In reality, it's a choice between 3 or 4 bad choices. Which is no choice at all. We all just have to choose who we think will be, not good (few politician's are capable of goodness), but the least bad!

Who really knows what each party will do if they're voted into power. No one knows. If there's one thing we all know, its that politicians are proficient at breaking promises, and hiding their true agenda's. I'll just be happy if the new gov't doesn't increase the national debt, and actually does something to reduce it a significant amount. That would be the single best thing that could happen to Canada, a reduction in debt.

[BlackRose]

Well when this whole mess started I was leaning towards a coservitive vote. I live in BC and i've seen what a mess NDP'ish governments can cause + I dont think they are very tough on foreign policy or to stand up for themselves for canadians against the millions of minority Groups (Appeasement, throwing money at them isnt negotiation for all of canada IMO). Jack Layton has done nothing to dissuade me from that notion.

On principal I WILL NOT vote LIBERAL as throwing a vote in that direction ultimately forgives them for the horrendous acts of public betrayal they've perpatrated.

I'm not from Quebec and I'M CANADIAN so the Bloc is totally out.

Stephen Harper sings a tune I like on Education, Health Care, Armed Forces etc But the guy scares me on Same Sex Marriage, (not on abortion, I believe him that he wont press that hot button.) Still I dont think he has enough reign on his people to manage them effectively and a lot of his people seem downright RABID.

So I was more than mildly surprised when I discovered I had another REAL alternative. The Green Party. They are hovering somewhere between 7 and 10% of the popular vote AND with every vote they get that places them OVER 2% they get a 1.75 in funding to better portray themselves.

Myself I've read all the platforms and to be honest I was quite surprised at what I found in the Green Party's Platform. They are not about to sack the military (THE NDP wants to phase out all offensive weaponry) Instead they want to reform it into a quick response force that can go just about anywhere to combat terrorism or keep the peace. Sounds reasonable.

"When crisis emerges or disaster strikes in any nation, Canadians are deeply moved to provide help. To play a role in international assistance missions, Canada must maintain a large, highly-trained and well-equipped Rapid Response and Deployment Force (RRDF). This will require new investments in long-range strategic air-lift equipment, disaster-relief equipment, state-of-the-art armoured personnel carriers, personal protective equipment and training for our forces."

What?! That doesnt sound 'Green' to me, it actually sounds responsible!

They also want to use Canada's influence to reorganize NATO (not scrap it like the NDP). Instead of 5 Veto Holders they want 15, 5 of the wealthiest, 5 of the most populous and 5 elected countries to form a larger more rounded security council. I'll be damned if that doesnt sound good too!

They plan on turfing the wasteful, ineffective GUN REGISTRY as well.

They want to implement a balanced set of Tax Cuts and Increases That:

*Lower taxes on income, profit and investment, to promote increased productivity and job creation.
*Raise taxes on harmful activities such as pollution, waste and inefficiency.
Shift taxes onto land values and away from building values.
*Reform the public sector to be more responsive and accountable.
*Re-focus government programs on promoting the long-term public interest; creating a world class education system and building strong communities. (Again not just looking to benifit your TERM in office but long term Canadian growth)
*Use tariffs when necessary to discourage unsustainable industries and human rights violations. (READ getting read of things that often end up replacing jobs in CANADA, as sweat shops always will and always do produce faster and cheaper than we will)

They also take a strong stance on Health Care providing incetive for Canadians to eath Healthier and excersice (which I think most of us will admit has a lot to do with the strain on our health care). All of this means that they will actually take the helm on the problem not just throw more money and a ailing system. They also plan on reducing pollution and cleaning up water (again who else does that?).

The one thing that scares me but probably makes others happy is the plan to reduce the standard work week for all canadians (stress=poor health). If they can pull that one off i'd love it, dunno how it can be done tho!

All in all the Green party platform (to me) seems the most comprehensive. I really get the feeling of a party that intends to govern Canada as if it was a life long job, not a 4 year term before we have to worry about it again (screw around for 3 years and then make false promises for 1 year).

Now I work within a circle of 20 people and i'm generally the most outspoken of the group. I tracked the voting trends at the begining.

8 Liberal
7 Conservitive
5 NDP

Before Debate (Mid Election)

5 Liberal
11 Conservitive
4 NDP

After Debate

4 Liberal
8 Conservitive
2 NDP
1 Green
5 Undecided.

(I was the Green Vote, formerly the Conservitive. Generally my circle was turned off from the debate, most of us agreed that Harper was the winner of the debate, clear and well spoken. Some of us just didnt like what he was saying).

NOW since then i've been sharing the Green ideas and having my friends go over the Green platform we now sit at.

2 Liberal
4 Conservitive
0 NDP
14 Green


By golly you know I think they may have a shot at Making a Minority or propping one up!

My suggestion, read the platform, share their ideas and see if you want to vote for em, and if you do inform others. They actually have a rounded, fiscally responisble platform that speaks to a lot of us.

www.greenparty.ca

btw prior to this i'm usually a staunch conservitive (because of economics not right wing views). I'm a supporter of what Klein did in Alberta, but a detractor of what Campbell does in BC (not as bad as his NDP predecessors tho).

All in all i'm sick of party fat cats riding promises to the top then throwing our money around like it was coming out of style once they get there.

So this election year I'LL be voting Green. And if not this term, but possibly the next I hope to see them IN OFFICE!

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Actually, the Green party might be more honest too. After all, a slick politician wants a party they think has a chance.

[TerranC]

Long post folks, if you're not interested, just stay clear of this one.

Stephen Harper sings a tune I like on Education, Health Care, Armed Forces etc But the guy scares me on Same Sex Marriage, (not on abortion, I believe him that he wont press that hot button.) Still I dont think he has enough reign on his people to manage them effectively and a lot of his people seem downright RABID.

How so? By saying that Marriage is a union between a man and a woman and that any other deviation is ungodly? Some radical MPs from every party preach that tune; it's just that the Conservatives haven't made tolerance towards metrosexuals official policy.

So I was more than mildly surprised when I discovered I had another REAL alternative. The Green Party. They are hovering somewhere between 7 and 10% of the popular vote AND with every vote they get that places them OVER 2% they get a 1.75 in funding to better portray themselves.

Popular votes don't win seats.

Myself I've read all the platforms and to be honest I was quite surprised at what I found in the Green Party's Platform. They are not about to sack the military (THE NDP wants to phase out all offensive weaponry) Instead they want to reform it into a quick response force that can go just about anywhere to combat terrorism or keep the peace. Sounds reasonable.

From the Green Party's Website:

To refocus Canada’s security capabilities and maximize their effectiveness, the Green Party will create an “International Affairs and Global Security Agency” to coordinate and fund the Department of National Defence, the Canadian International Development Agency and the Department of Foreign Affairs (excluding trade and citizenship). Our international efforts to achieve peace and sustainability can be best attained by coordinating our diplomatic and military capabilities, existing aid and development. Having one agency to coordinate all of our international efforts will maximize our potential contributions.

Yeah, I bet it will.

Create a RRDF that combines the efforts of civilian specialists and diplomats with military units.

Ensure that these units work together, in a coordinated fashion, to protect civilians and eco-systems.

Mix civilians and diplomats with military units to combat terrorism, keep the peace, and protect the environment; That sounds mighty naive to me, and dangerous to bout; we've seen and are seeing civilian contractors, diplomats, and fully-armed solders alike get taken down one by one in Iraq, Afghanistan, and in Saudi Arabia; what makes you think that this RRDF can live up to its goal?

Canada’s security at home should be managed by one department. Search and rescue, coastal patrol, airborne maritime surveillance and disaster assistance would all be coordinated under one roof. A merged and enhanced National Reserve and Coast Guard would share the mission to protect our society from internal and external threats.

There's a reason why the National Reserve and the Coast Guard are separate organizations; it's more efficient when one organization sticks to its job. If the Green Party wants to increase the coast guard's size by cutting a part of the national reserve and merging that part with it, more power to them, but merging to different organizations into one to handle two jobs at once is, IMHO, dangerous.

"When crisis emerges or disaster strikes in any nation, Canadians are deeply moved to provide help. To play a role in international assistance missions, Canada must maintain a large, highly-trained and well-equipped Rapid Response and Deployment Force (RRDF). This will require new investments in long-range strategic air-lift equipment, disaster-relief equipment, state-of-the-art armoured personnel carriers, personal protective equipment and training for our forces."

What?! That doesnt sound 'Green' to me, it actually sounds responsible!

No, that sounds conservative to me.

They also want to use Canada's influence to reorganize NATO (not scrap it like the NDP). Instead of 5 Veto Holders they want 15, 5 of the wealthiest, 5 of the most populous and 5 elected countries to form a larger more rounded security council. I'll be damned if that doesnt sound good too!

You mean the UN security council. And the NDP wanted to scrap NATO in favor of getting a fleet of "6 Aurora Long Range Patrol Aircraft, 12 non-nuclear submarines, 18 frigates, and a fleet of helicopters." This was back in 1987, a good 17 years ago, when Russia was still the USSR. Jack Layton has said that the NDP will commit itself to NATO; and I believe him on this fact; it would seem foolish to reject an organization that offers deterrent against threats abroad. About that 15 nations who would hold veto power in the UN securiy council; how would you measure wealth? GDP per capita? Are you prepared to give Luxembourg and and the Cayman Islands veto power over 200 nations? or perhaps by raw GDP itself; thus letting the US and China retain their vetos, and yet giving Germany and Japan veto power, which would cause unparalleled furour in asia and europe? and by population alone, the world would certainly be alarmed at the fact of Indonesia ganing veto power at this time, should the greens have their way. A security coucil with the US, Germany, Japan, and Luxembourg on one side and with China, Indonesia, the Bermudas and the Cayman Islands one the other plus 5 other nations would certainly create mutual co-operation.

They plan on turfing the wasteful, ineffective GUN REGISTRY as well.

So does every other party, and then some.

They want to implement a balanced set of Tax Cuts and Increases That:

*Raise taxes on harmful activities such as pollution, waste and inefficiency.
*Use tariffs when necessary to discourage unsustainable industries and human rights violations. (READ getting read of things that often end up replacing jobs in CANADA, as sweat shops always will and always do produce faster and cheaper than we will)

You do realize that almost every economic and daily practices (such as cutting down trees for softwood lumber, which I am informed as being one of the most important industries in BC, your home province, and riding a car with a bad muffler) could be considered polluting, don't you? And tariffs to discourage unsustainable industries (which I must assume that they mean the current energy sector by that) and human rights violations? So the Green party would impose taxes each time we import power and gas from the US and abroad, while virtually prohibiting third world products (which I am sure were made in inhygenic factories in god-knows-where) from reaching our shores by taxing them? And expect the Canadian economy to fuction and grow all the while?

They also take a strong stance on Health Care providing incentive for Canadians to eat Healthier and excercise (which I think most of us will admit has a lot to do with the strain on our health care). All of this means that they will actually take the helm on the problem not just throw more money and a ailing system. They also plan on reducing pollution and cleaning up water (again who else does that?).

High praise for a party that would more or less advocate euthanasia.

The Green Party will:
Reduce the long hours that Canadians are working.

Advocate for more time spent engaging in outdoor activities.

Work to decrease the pollution that is weakening our immune systems.

Work to reduce overstress, which is a leading cause of health problems.

Respect the rights of the terminally ill to refuse treatment.

The one thing that scares me but probably makes others happy is the plan to reduce the standard work week for all canadians (stress=poor health). If they can pull that one off i'd love it, dunno how it can be done tho!

You and me both. Although I expect it'll go down in flames once everybody starts to take advantage of it.

All in all the Green party platform (to me) seems the most comprehensive. I really get the feeling of a party that intends to govern Canada as if it was a life long job, not a 4 year term before we have to worry about it again (screw around for 3 years and then make false promises for 1 year).

They do have that effect on people, don't they?

btw prior to this i'm usually a staunch conservitive (because of economics not right wing views). I'm a supporter of what Klein did in Alberta, but a detractor of what Campbell does in BC (not as bad as his NDP predecessors tho).

In all fairness, Klein managed to pull it off because the odds were on his side; Gas, a market for Gas, and at the time when Klein was first elected, a rising price trend for gas. Not all provinces can be expected to pull off the "Klein Formula".

All quotes taken from the Green Party Website: http://www.greenparty.ca/platform2004/en/index.php?p

Edit: bad grammar edited

[ June 19, 2004, 22:10: Message edited by: TerranC ]