OT: Canadian Federal Election

[BlackRose]

Same thing happened to me, initially I endevoured to discover which party I hated the least. I still thought is was imperative that I voted but it wasnt about which party I liked, I didnt even consider the Greens a party.

Then I heard about the 1.75 a vote thing so I figured i'd at least check out their party's platform.

Glad I did.

Still I'd like to hear what Renegade 13 likes/dislikes about the Conservative platform. Or any party's platform for that matter? As I said before I WAS going to vote for the Conservatives but changed my mind. Admitedlly it had a lot to do with what the Greens offered, compared platform to platform I did prefer the Greens largly. BUT these were the issues that really bothered me with the conservatives:

Harper's Control over his party: More than any other party the Conservatives broke ranks and made inflamitory statements seemingly against what the party was standing for, regarding Military, Abortion, Same Sex Marriage. If he couldnt control them durig the Election how could he control them after?

Conservative Policy: They still hadnt held their Policy Convention so really Harper was running on an UNAPPROVED platform that may have been revised or turned aside. I dont blame Harper for that, it's more Martin's fault as he called the election to beat down the Conservatives (not giving Harper enough time to call the convention). In the end I still could leave that to chance.

In no way do I agree with sending Canadian Troops to fight in Iraq. I dont mind supporting the UN or helping in Peace Keeping etc. In the begining I bought the line about supporting existing Canadian troops, but as time went on it became painfully obvious that we would have been involved in combat over their if we had been under a Conservative Government. I just cant get my head around that and agree with it.

I really am not comfortable with a lot of the personal views held by Harpers chosen MP's. I can name several from BC how almost frighten me. I spoke to my local Conservative MP and I got the same gist, he was quite aquard about ansering questions about going to Iraq, Abortion and Same Sex Marriage. It made him uncomfortable and in turn made me more uncomfortable watching him squirm around the answers trying to find a diplomatic response.

I do agree with the reformation/refunding of the military but I dont like what the Conservatives are proposing to do with that funding. I was far more comfortable with the Green view on that.

I dont mind their view on health care (Chiropractic, Naturalpaths, Ancupuncture, Family Doctors) are all examples of private health care (but you dont pay).

I like the Idea of scrapping the Registry, the only old line party that wants to do that (but so do the greens).

I DID trust his economic views and I honestly believe he would have held to that budget, but I'd rather an econimist like Harper have that affect on government spending and then taking the balance and using it for other things than what Harper's Conservatives want. (Again, I know I keep plugging them!) See the Green economic platform.

[ June 30, 2004, 04:25: Message edited by: BlackRose ]

[Renegade 13]

Here's what I like about the Conservative platform:

1. Scrapping the Gun Registry: It was and is a complete and total waste of money, plus it will do absolutely no good at all. Do criminals register their guns?? I think not. Also, it is simply another way for the government to control the common people. Conservatives were planning on scrapping it, which is great.

2. Additional funding for the military: Lets face it, Canada relies too heavily on US protection. Our navy is pathetic, our army is tiny and underfunded, and the air force I know nothing about, so I won't comment. But we need to have the military capability to protect ourselves, without relying on our allies who may not have our best interests at heart.

3. Space based weapons: This idea I really like. Canada should be able to protect itself, and if space-based weaponry is a way to do that, then go for it. The Conservatives are the only party that I know of that aren't pacifistic, and push-overs in the international community. Space based weapons are something that we are totally unprotected against, and something that we need as a counter threat for countries that DO have them.

4. Gay Marriage: Now this can be a tough issue, and I don't wanna step on any toes here, but I think that the traditional definition of marriage is the correct one. Marriage is between a man and a woman. Like the saying goes, God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. That is, if you believe in creation not evolution, blah blah blah, that's another debate. Now, I would have no problem if two gay men wanted to formalize their union, but give it another name, don't call it marriage. I don't really care what else you call it, but don't call it marriage please. I'm not totally sure what the Conservatives had planned for that, but I do know that they stated what their plans would be, rather than the other parties who hedged around the issue, and avoided it as much as they could.

5. Abortion: I think that the right to choose is a invaluable one. But should a woman be allowed to choose to murder her child?? In my opinion, no. Can I choose to murder my worst enemy?? No. So neither should a woman be able to kill her child, no matter how much it is unwanted. Its still murder, and its wrong. As far as I know, the Conservatives were taking a similar stance to mine on abortion.

6. Western alienation: Believe it or not, its a true thing. Nearly all politicians ignore the west as though it did not exist. I should know, I live in BC. Harper and the Conservatives are mostly a western party, therefore their concerns lie more in the ignored west. They are the only party that is willing to do something about the problem, and make the west feel as though it is a valued part of Canada, rather than a barely tolerated nuisance.

Those are most of the reasons why I like the Conservatives. I do not want to go Green, because of their environmentalism. In BC, where I live, regulations on the forestry industry are already over the top. We do not need any more red tape, or tree-hugging Greens representing us, and creating heaps of new legislation to help destroy the economy here. Now, I know you'll all refute that in one way or another, but when its all boiled down, it would be a disaster for BC.

There is one thing in particular that I do not like at all about the Conservative platform. They would have sent troops to Iraq. That I can not agree with in any way, as it is not our conflict, and I see very little reason for Canada to send troops over there to get killed in a conflict that the US started.

There is one thing I'm grateful to the Greens for: in many BC ridings, they drew enough votes away from the NDP or Liberals to allow the Conservative candidate to win. So, thanks Green voters in BC!!

Please, feel free to poke holes in my logic, and I will attempt to see your opinions as well. This is only my opinion, and may be totally wrong, as I have not done a lot of research into any of the platforms.

Tyrel

[Edited for clarity and additional points/arguements]

[ June 30, 2004, 05:12: Message edited by: Renegade 13 ]

[Captain Kwok]

Some counterpoints:

- Our military is in mostly bad shape, but I wouldn't say our navy is pathetic. It's actually fairly decent and up to date. A bit more funding and better use of it would go a long way for the rest of our forces. It's important to at least be able to enforce out territorial claims, especially up north.

- Space based weapons is certainly silly for us to consider. Agreeing to participate in any US missile shield just makes us more of a target, plus how likely will someone actually target a ballistic missile at us? Anyways, it's super expensive and not proven to be effective.

- Many people have a misconception that marriage is solely a religious ceremony. Back in the early middle ages, marriage was simply a vow between two people before some witnesses. Religion didn't really step in until later on. Anyways, marriage for anyone is fine by me as it doesn't affect my happiness nor does it affect the commitment I have made in my marriage. I do agree that churches shouldn't be forced to conduct cerimonies if they don't want to, that's something people seem to mention a lot.

- Abortion. This is a must. Of course, you'd want to restrict it to early term pregnancies unless there were mitigating medical circumstances. Better sex ed and more available contraception could go along ways here, plus the RU-486. Abortion should never be nor is intended as an after-the-fact contraception method.

- The environment is a major concern. In B.C., it's improving with more emphasis on sustainable logging activities and such. However, alternatives to fossil fuels need to pushed ahead. We're way behind Europe and Japan here!

- The conservative party is not a western based party, they're just enjoying greater support there at the moment. It's the underlying elements of the old alliance/reform party that a lot of us dislike in Ontario.

[Captain Kwok]

Woops.

Forgot about the gun control part. Some sort of registry is not a bad idea, but the way it implemented was. A think a change to the criminal system where criminals face much longer sentences for using a firearm would be much more effective overall.

[BlackRose]

Well if those are your views (I dont agree whith a lot of them) then you definately should be voting Conservative.

About the 'tree hugger' greens. I think you should read a bit more about them. There is a misconception that there even more leftest that the NDP, this is simply not true. The NDP and the Greens do have some common ground but not as much as many people think.

About their policies in BC, well they actually enjoy more support in BC than anywhere esle and by all acounts that continues to grow. The greens want to invest in creating sustainable industry. Simply put no body can argue anymore about us ruining our environment and sooner rather than later running out of those trees and oil that you consider to be so valuable to the economy. Likely in your life time the world will experience a major shortage in one or both of those industries. Simply put we need to explore other alternatives.

I too live in BC and just because I feel alienated doesnt mean i'm ready to take the step into those waiting conservative arms. I'm going to be blunt here but the Conservative Ideal is going the way of the Dodo. This election of the 4 major parties 1 is left/centre 2 are left and the greens (if you count them as the fifth) are left/centre as well. The conservatives were in a posistion (now united) to gain all that vote on the right as there is no other right alternative. At best 1 out of 6 elegible voters actually voted for them (including the non voters).

Not to begrudge you of your opinion but as a Canadian Alternative their interest seems to be dwindling more and more each year.

Weapons in space is such a bizarre notion its hard to attack it seriously. But where do you think these laser beams would intercept these missles? Any way you look at it its gonna be a major nuke somewher and the size of these warheads these days it pretty much doesnt matter where it is detonated its gonna cause world wide trouble, just a matter of if you die in the bLast of suffer from all the after affects weeks/months or years later. It's stupid, just a stupid as the US/Soviet build up of Nukes in the 70's Each power being able to obliterate the earth many times over.

How would STARWARS prevent the sept 11 attacks? Or assuming we go the way of Israel would that system protect them? I think we're seeing that those are the wars of the future and any space based weapons programs are all but useless. (I cant resist) This isnt Space Empires here

The military doesnt need a lot of what the Conservatives want for them, I strongly reccomend you read up on what the Greens want for the military you might find some common ground. All in all you have to think what those investments would be used for. You dont like the fact that the Conservatives would have sent our troops to Iraq, well let me tell you, if we had been under the Conservatives we would have sent a lot more than we would have been able to at this point. The Conservatives would use that funding in just those kind of unilateral engagements eager to reinstate some archaic chest thumping that Canadians dont have much interest in.

[Saxon]

Interesting comment on the Greens not being as left wing as the NDP. To a certain extent it is true, but much of the Green agenda is based on forcing the economy to take a certain path, which they see as better than others. At a fundamental level, they are saying that people should not be free to do what they like economically and that the Greens know better. This is the same as the NDP, who know better than you what your money should be spent on.

While the Greens have become much more sophisticated with their economic arguments and are nowhere near as one dimensional as many people suspect, they are not a party for freedom, particularly economic freedom.

Interestingly, the most successful Green party, that in Germany, has had some marketing problems. They can not use the images that traditional provide a resonance to the German culture. The historic images used in Germany in the 20’s and 30’s became tied up to the Nazi party! The Nazi’s had, believe it or not, a strong links to the ideas and people who promoted early environmental thought and were very concerned with where the resources to run their society would come from. The idea of Lebensraum, “living room” for the Aryan race to flourish was a mix of racism, nationalism, concern over population density and the fear of dwindling resources. Many of the ideas of environmentalism can, and have, mixed with those of social control and the limiting of individual freedom.

If I had my old hard drive here, I would post a link to an essay I did on this back in grad school. It would have all the references to back this up, as it does sound outlandish. That was half the reason I researched it, I did not believe my prof who told me about it!

In any case, let me say that I prefer parties which argue for individual freedom, particularly financial freedom, where we are the least free. Tax Freedom Day in Canada was only Last week…

[BlackRose]

One man's freedom is another's slavery. A lot of our finacial freedom comes at the expense of others, the greens arent saying 'change right now'. They are saying 'lets get on the path to changing'.

Sure, buying slave labour is cheap but do we really think it wont bite us in the *** later on? What happens if those nations westernize? Whate will we do? Or if they rise up in anger and want their piece of the pie that they helped build?

We should ask ourselves these things, the Greens want to start asking them and moving down a different path.

OIL? What are we going to do? What if the Middle East errupts in war or terrorists blow up oil fields or if we simply just start running out? Man kind will be hit with the dark ages having no alternative, the Greens want to start exploring those alternatives. India and China (the two most populous nations) are starting to industrialize and modernize and they'll be wanting oil as well, the prices will rise faster than you can imagine. Between those two nations it probably amounts to 5x or 10x the oil currently needed. Where is it going to come from?

About the Greens and Nazi Socialism its an interesting history lesson but in the end it is a missleading representation that lumps in their philosophies with something they are not even remotely affiliated with.

Now I agree with you on the paths the NDP are wanting to take as being quite unrealistic, but have you looked at the Green plans? they are not out to lunch. They call for a gradual proggression so as not to shock the economy. There are just as many jobs in alternative energy as in oil, if not more.

Sometimes I just dont understand what people are afraid of. Do you like relying on the Middle East for your Cars, Houses, Heat, Power etc? Or would you like to employ Canadians using alternative energy? We've already designed a lot of these things but the people in charge of the Oil want to keep making the money, increasing our dependance. Heck they benefit from shortages. Really think about it, if your in your late 40's or 50's chances are you'll still be around to see the coming troubles, and if your younger, you'll be raising your children through those times. Either we're prepared for it or we're not. Heck we can even be unaffected by it and be in a posistion to profit beyond our wildest dreams by becoming the next Middle East while the rest of the world struggles to implement the same systems.

Here are some figures:

United States 67.85 barrels per day per 1000 people or 19.7 million barrels per day
They Have (est) 290,342,554 people

Canada 62.09 barrels per day per 1000 people
or 2.0 million barrels per day
We Have (est) 32,207,113

AND

China 3.80 barrels per day per 1000 people
or 4.9 million barrels per day
They have (est) 1,286,975,468 people

India 1.90 barrels per day per 1000 people
or 2.0 million barrels per day
They have (est) 1,049,700,118

Taking the US model if the Chinese reach the same per capita consumption they will be sucking back
80 Million barrels per day of Oil

Do you know that that is more than 15 Million barrels than the entire world consumes per day?

Or, The US consumes 1/3 to 1/4 of the worlds oil each and every day?

Another Fun Fact: The US only keeps 22 Million barrles of Oil In reserve, that would Last them what? 27 Hours?

Saudia Arabia has the Highest reserves at 264 Million Barrels, Perfect, that would keep the US going for all of 13 days... Wonderful!

I mean c'mon people!? Do we really think we can keep this up?

[ June 30, 2004, 23:56: Message edited by: BlackRose ]