MP Game - Graeme's New Game

[Wendigo]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
No, I'm simply making a decision that I won't have anything to do with a known cheater.

Now, will you please stay out of threads that deal with games that you aren't welcome in? [/QB]

So you believe that you can insult him in public and he has no right to defend himself? This is bull**** Graeme. If you do not want him in your game say so without going into name calling.

Besides, nothing of what went on in that game amounts to cheating acording to the stuff that has been displayed in the relevant threads.

-So he joined a game under a different alias, so what? is that cheating in your book?

-So he got some info out of SB regarding the game in a chat forum? nobody is to blame from that save SB that did not keep his mouth shut, he was not tortured for that info, right?
Is that cheating? If NF got that info out of some other player in the game via an in-game backstab would that have amounted to cheating? You cannot make a distinction between in-game lying & out-of-game lying when diplomacy is most often than not done via e-mail.


I will tell you what _is_ cheating. Back in DomsI I joined a game (Mayhem of magic) in which the host was playing Ulm with full positive scales (all +3 except for drain & neutral weather), a citadel fort & a Cyclops RB pretender proficient in all magics...the guy had ringed the map giving himself a pretender with far far more than 500 design points. YWL was also in that game, same as JT I believe. The only time in all these years of Doms MP playing I have run into a cheater, but we spotted him easily.

That _is_ cheating: manipulating the map, the design points, the hosting or entering the game as multiple nations. Add violating whichever house rules are agreed on.

A couple lies however, is _not_ cheating in a game that allows diplomacy. Whether those lies were in-game or not is irrelevant so long as you do not set in stone that all diplomacy must be conducted via the in-game messaging.

So, drop the name calling. If you do not trust NF, just say so & move on, but do not be surprised if the guy shows up to defend himself.

This public hanging is sickening.

[calmon]

I will join as pythium if there is still an empty slot for me.

edit: changed my mind. I would take emor.

[ June 01, 2004, 17:55: Message edited by: calmon ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Wendigo:
So you believe that you can insult him in public and he has no right to defend himself? This is bull**** Graeme. If you do not want him in your game say so without going into name calling.

Which, as you'll notice, is exactly what I did until people started telling me that I should let him in. I simply sent him a PM that he wasn't welcome, and confirmed that he was not playing in the game before that.

Besides, nothing of what went on in that game amounts to cheating acording to the stuff that has been displayed in the relevant threads.

Yes, it does qualify as cheating to me, and I really don't want to have to discuss it any further.

-So he joined a game under a different alias, so what? is that cheating in your book?

Joining under an alias falls into a very gray area. Lying about your identity when asked about it in order to gain information on a game _is_ cheating.

-So he got some info out of SB regarding the game in a chat forum? nobody is to blame from that save SB that did not keep his mouth shut, he was not tortured for that info, right?
Is that cheating?

Yes, it is cheating, since he lied about being the player in the game. It was Norfleet's responsibility to inform people that he was playing, and he failed to do so. That makes him a cheater.

If NF got that info out of some other player in the game via an in-game backstab would that have amounted to cheating?

No, since that wouldn't have been using his alias to cover his true identity.

You cannot make a distinction between in-game lying & out-of-game lying when diplomacy is most often than not done via e-mail.

Of course you can. He didn't disguise his plans in the game, he lied about even being a player in the game.

A couple lies however, is _not_ cheating in a game that allows diplomacy. Whether those lies were in-game or not is irrelevant so long as you do not set in stone that all diplomacy must be conducted via the in-game messaging.

He lied about his identity when specifically asked about it. He lied about it in a situation where he should have specifically stated that he was playing in the game.

So, drop the name calling. If you do not trust NF, just say so & move on, but do not be surprised if the guy shows up to defend himself.

If you read the thread, you'd notice that that is exactly what I did. I didn't even explain myself until some person decided that I should have to defend my decision to exclude Norfleet.

[Rainbow]

Graeme,

I realize you're probably a bit suspicious about people you don't know joining your game right now, but I would like to join your game as Marignon if that alright?

/Rainbow

[Reverend Zombie]

A question on method:

how does one e-mail a Pretender? (i.e., where do I find a Pretender in the Dominions2 folder?)

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Reverend Zombie:
how does one e-mail a Pretender? (i.e., where do I find a Pretender in the Dominions2 folder?)

It is in the newlords directory, as the .2h file with the name of your nation.

[Wendigo]

>Yes, it does qualify as cheating to me, and I really don't want to have to discuss it any further.

Yet you are. And with those personal attacks you are not only soiling his reputation, but yours also. You could have simply said 'I have no fun playing with NF' instead of insulting him, by calling him a cheater.

The 'to me' part of your answer is the key of the issue, you are confusing facts with opinions, you are mixing rules & personal ethics. He did not break any rule (either explicit or implicit), thus he did _not_ cheat. You do not consider his 2 lies ethic, fine, but that does not make him a cheater and your insistence on using the term harms you as much as it harms him.

>Joining under an alias falls into a very gray area. Lying about your identity when asked about it in order to gain information on a game _is_ cheating.

Why? why should he have admitted so? so that his opponents could gang him 6on1 and then pat each others' backs after the kill? I fail to see why he should admit so while the game is running, and such admitance would only hurt his position. We all have different opinions on what is ethic or not in the game but 'cheating' is a totally different issue & the distinction should be clear.


me:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-So he got some info out of SB regarding the game in a chat forum? nobody is to blame from that save SB that did not keep his mouth shut, he was not tortured for that info, right?
Is that cheating?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Yes, it is cheating, since he lied about being the player in the game. It was Norfleet's responsibility to inform people that he was playing, and he failed to do so. That makes him a cheater.

I notice that you did not answer my 2nd question. But I will rephrase it and ask it again: Say player X, Y & Z are in the same game, and in a game related thread X tells Y "do not attack me, I am weak, attack Z instead who is the biggest threat" with this being a lie. Would this be 'cheating'?

me:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You cannot make a distinction between in-game lying & out-of-game lying when diplomacy is most often than not done via e-mail.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Of course you can. He didn't disguise his plans in the game, he lied about even being a player in the game.

So you can lie in Messages, you can lie in e-mail but you cannot lie in a thread about the game in a forum or chat room? Where's that rule written? what kind of logic do you use to draw the line?

>He lied about his identity when specifically asked about it. He lied about it in a situation where he should have specifically stated that he was playing in the game.

Why should he? You have yet to back this with a single reason that doesn't fall in the field of personal ethics.

Frankly, drop it. It hurts his reputation, it hurts the atmosphear of this forum, and it hurts you by giving the image of someone engaged in a personal vendetta with no solid ground to be based on. At least in my eyes as an outsider.