Intergalactic Civil War !!??

Str8_Gain · #1 April 4th, 2001, 06:23 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Lucanos:

Therefore there shouldn't be any wormholes at the start of the game (maybe some rarity here and there) because it would unbalance it a great deal - warpdrive is almost pointlessless if you have access to wormholes. Also wormhole technology (Stellar Manipulation) would be worth even more.

I've played a few games with No Warp Points and Finite Resources set, to make it interesting. Problem is, the AI can't handle this at all. Resource management is vital in that sort of game, since you gotta have enough in your treasury to pay maintenance costs on Stellar Manipulation ships. The AI basically sucks a planet dry and does not build storage facilities to retain the resources, stalling their development, and making them easy kills when I open a warp point to their system.

Also, AI research is lousy in that sort of game, since they pour so much into weapons techs instead of stuff like Applied Research and Stellar Manipulation. I basically now give them a Low-Medium bonus to start them with, but even then they're pushovers, since they go for more weapons tech.

Bottom line: if you want to implement this, the AI needs serious adjustment to its research and resource strategies.

chewy027 · #2 April 4th, 2001, 05:56 PM

That is why warp tech would be good with few or no warp points Str8_Gain, you could just warp in and not even need wormholes. Then you would't have to pay for costly wormhole components. Maybe you'd want some wormholes between key systems or only between systems you control or at least have a regional capital in (if our idea would ever be implemented.) Either way warp tech would probably be easier on the AI anyway, and the AI would probably be a harder opponent with it.

Thoughts?

Str8_Gain · #3 April 4th, 2001, 10:26 PM

Let's take these one at a time:

quote:

That is why warp tech would be good with few or no warp points Str8_Gain, you could just warp in and not even need wormholes. Then you would't have to pay for costly wormhole components.

Personally, I only use mabye a couple pairs of ships equipped with warp point components (frigate hulls, one ship carries the GQR, the other the GC). My biggest concern with this is if you can detect and intercept a warp-drive fleet before it comes into your system. Also, travel times have to be taken into account (too long, and it turns into a Stars! kind of game where it takes several game years to go from one system to another). If that's the case, by the time the first AI fleets show up on my doorstep with tech that's obsolete by months or even years, I will have ships capable of wiping the floor with them, and be well on my way to SM level 3.

quote:

Maybe you'd want some wormholes between key systems or only between systems you control or at least have a regional capital in (if our idea would ever be implemented.) Either way warp tech would probably be easier on the AI anyway, and the AI would probably be a harder opponent with it.

I'm assuming you're still going to use the idea of a warp drive component that'll take up lots of room. By doing so, that means that you'd have to have a destroyer or light cruiser hull before you can build an effective combat vessel. Even so, these ships would be inferior to any defense ships you could cook up, even if the defense ships have inferior technology (they can simply use the space to stack more weapons/shields/armor/etc.). Also, you can use that time to attain numerical superiority as well. Meanwhile, I quietly research up to SM level 3, and open a warp point to your system and just pour in destroying everything in sight.

The key problem is that while all ships must have warpdrives, not all ships have to have SM components. I usually keep a fleet of 3 ships as my SM group (one to open points, one to close them, and one with a repair bay), and use my much bigger ships to protect them while they open and close warp points so they can bypass minefields and other static defenses.

quote:
Thoughts?

My thoughts are that I have reservations about this idea of warp drives. You'd have to give the AI a low or medium tech bonus for them to be able to use this in the early game, so they have the hulls needed to build effective ships with.

chewy027 · #4 April 5th, 2001, 01:17 AM

Interesting insight Str8-Gain. I like the way you disected my reply

! The time it takes to warp between systems could Depend on the tech level of the warp and the distance between systems. Also, the computer should probably give an estimated time of arrival. And I don't think the warp drive should take up any more than 100K this way you only sacrifice maybe two missiles or something for instantaneous tracel. I figure the warp, at maximum, from one end of the galaxy to the other, should take no morethan 6 or 7 turns at lowest level. Then as you increase up to the max level it gets shorter. Also, (this is a far out one now) maybe there could be one of those hidden techs, you know massive ...., that would give you instant warp drives or even (this ones even farther out) a tech thank links all ships to one warp. Now i will wait for you to disect this one

Oh and by the way what do you think of the civil war idea Str8_Gain? good or bad? What are your thoughts and suggestions?

[This message has been edited by chewy027 (edited 05 April 2001).]

chewy027 · #5 April 5th, 2001, 04:15 AM

Just wondering if the civil war idea would ever have a chance of being implemented. I mean does everyone else think it would be worthwhile? I for one would pay for it to be implemented into some expansion along with other new features. But the real question is does this idea stand out among the other hundreds that have been posted in this forum? And if not how do we get MM to notice it?

Thoughts?

Str8_Gain · #6 April 5th, 2001, 04:29 AM

quote:

Interesting insight Str8-Gain. I like the way you disected my reply !

Yer welcome!

quote:

The time it takes to warp between systems could Depend on the tech level of the warp and the distance between systems. Also, the computer should probably give an estimated time of arrival. And I don't think the warp drive should take up any more than 100K this way you only sacrifice maybe two missiles or something for instantaneous tracel.

It'd make sense. 100kt is the same space that a GQR or GC takes up. This would automatically discount using Escorts or Frigates to give the AI a whomping very early on. A Destroyer hull would be the minimum size you could use.

quote:

I figure the warp, at maximum, from one end of the galaxy to the other, should take no more than 6 or 7 turns at lowest level. Then as you increase up to the max level it gets shorter.

Egad! Six or seven turns to traverse a huge galaxy? From what I see posted below, your intent seems to be that warpdrives are to be a beginning option for interstellar travel until you could build SM ships. If you did this, then researching SM to get higher levels of GQR would be worthless. With GQR I, to cross a huge galaxy from one corner to another would take six turns at a minimum (assuming the distance is 600ly). Better have Emergency Resupply Pods or a Quantum Reactor, now that the SM component supply bug has been fixed. Even with GQR V, it'll take two turns.

For a beginning level, I'd make the transit times a lot longer. Even at the top end of the tech tree for warpdrives, I'd say 6-7 turns should be the minimum for traversing a huge galaxy. Unless I'm totally misreading your intent, the warpdrive is supposed to be a slowboat inferior option to SM components.

quote:

Also, (this is a far out one now) maybe there could be one of those hidden techs, you know massive ...., that would give you instant warp drives or even (this ones even farther out) a tech thank links all ships to one warp. Now i will wait for you to disect this one

Destabilizing, unless the component destroys itself after use, like current SM components do. It'd give one pause before sticking a drive on a ship that can send it anywhere if they need to either use the existing warp points or stick another "instant warpdrive" on it so it can bug out if need be.

The "linked" warpdrive you're describing would be even more destabilizing, unless the travel times are made so they're not too fast or put a limit on how many ships can be "linked" to one drive. In a sense, this is what I do with SM ships now, except there's no limits on how many ships I can send through (one ship to open points, all ships go through, then my other SM ship closes the point behind them).

Overall, I do like this idea, and I do like "outside the box" thinking in general. What I'd like to see is a)playtesting on this concept, and b)an option to turn this off for those that don't want to use it.

quote:

Oh and by the way what do you think of the civil war idea? good or bad? What are your thoughts and suggestions?

I'm pretty familiar with this from playing Freeciv (Linux clone of Civ II). It's one of my favorite ways to totally fubar large AI rival empires, since the AI there is tough, even at "normal" difficulty levels. At a minimum, any conquered races should rebel if they make up the majority of the population of a system. If a system has a "mixed" population of your race plus conquered ones, there should be a chance that the planet(s) populated by your race in that system will join along with the rebellion.

Reservations: the Palace facility that's being bandied about should be invulnerable to the Industrial Sabotage intel operation. Mabye a new intel op should be added, with a higher price tag, if you want to take out a Palace and throw an entire empire into a civil war. Puppet Political Parties should not work against your homeworld, or whatever world you have your Palace on. Modifiers, such as a planet's mood, or the presence of your fleets in the system should be taken into consideration.

As far as their affiliations, conquered races should resurrect their empire (lending new meaning to "Though we fall now, we shall rise again!"). Planets populated by your race should either join a resurrected empire, an unconquered empire, or build their own, with preference given to building their own empire. And to add more insult to injury, have your race break up into multiple empires.

Again, I like this idea, and I'd like to see playtesting on it. You shouldn't be able to turn it off, IMHO, since it would pretty accurately reflect what would happen if somebody decapitated an empire's top leadership.

chewy027 · #7 April 5th, 2001, 05:06 AM

At least we agree on the tonnage Str8_Gain

.

I really hadn't thought that 6 or 7 turns would be that long. But if you make comparison to the wormholes then (hit to my pride) I must admit you are right.

However, if the wormnole prevention facility being discussed in Capt_Spoogy's interesting new things thread was instituted then warp tech would be essential. Either way I don't really care if warp tech is implemented (although it would be a nice feature along with the wormhole facility) it was just an idea for the solution to neutrals as i said before.

What I'm really interested in is the Civil War feature. And I agree with every thing you stated below.

"Reservations: the Palace facility that's being bandied about should be invulnerable to the Industrial Sabotage intel operation. Mabye a new intel op should be added, with a higher price tag, if you want to take out a Palace and throw an entire empire into a civil war. Puppet Political Parties should not work against your homeworld, or whatever world you have your Palace on. Modifiers, such as a planet's mood, or the presence of your fleets in the system should be taken into consideration."

"As far as their affiliations, conquered races should resurrect their empire (lending new meaning to "Though we fall now, we shall rise again!"). Planets populated by your race should either join a resurrected empire, an unconquered empire, or build their own, with preference given to building their own empire. And to add more insult to injury, have your race break up into multiple empires."

All these comments are great and add to the ideas polish. The only thing I don't understand is the very Last sentence, "And to add more insult..." Do you mean if an empire goes into civil war it breaks up into more than two? Or are you reaffirming the Civil War idea?

I too played civ all the time and that is where I stole this idea from

I figured if it can be in a great game like civ why not in an even beter game like SE4

disect away!