What now????

[Shadow99]

Actually I wish MM would let the mod authors help them more directly by incorporating our alterations instead of doing that part themselves. They should concentrate on AI & abilities (I'm still waiting for a resupply generators to work as they don't know & my nuclear reactors look silly using solar gen ). I personnally have made over 50 new components, added 4 new sciences, 5 new ship types, etc... That as soon as I'm done balancing & the few remaining issues are settled I'll be releasing (work & college have not yet let me finish these Last two things ).

But yes the AI needs work, I've still been suprised by the AI occasionally, but not often enough to call it a challenge & yes this should be the first priority for MM besides making sure all the abilities actually work for the mod authors...

[Dweeb]

quote:

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Originally posted by Michou:
OK, let's face it :

1 - The AI must cheat if it is to stand a chance.

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I actually have no problem with a Cheating AI. That's how Sid Meier always did his. One of the problems, however, is that IIRC the AI will take over for a player who misses his turn is a multiplayer game. In this case, it is critical for the AI NOT to cheat. It might be necessary therefore to include TWO AIs, cheating and non-cheating. In fact, I think players who miss their multiplayer turns should be punished by having their empires run by a poor AI!

[Talenn]

Dweeb:

The 'cheating' can take many forms that dont necessarily alter the dynamics of the game. A simple production/research bonus (already included in the 'AI Bonus' setting) is an example. Another would be giving it access to info it wouldnt otherwise have in order for it to be able to properly determine if it is strong enough to attack a certain location.

Things like that wont be broken if the AI has to take over for a human player. I dont think you'd want to switch back and forth though.

Overall, I'm not a big fan of AI 'cheating' but in a game this complex, its apparent that it needs SOME sort of boost. Actually, thats not entirely true from the 'challenge' standpoint. It would STILL be challenging even as it is if the AI would simply display some aggression early in the game. The ability for a human player to expand is greatly increased when they dont have to worry about defense in the slightest.

I'm pretty sure that if the next Version of the AI comes out and it is far more aggressive (and makes more intelligent attacks...ie actually STACKS before it attacks in the early game), people will find the game far more challenging.

Talenn

[Kentavr]

An AI doesn't need to cheat to win.

An AI does, however, need to be able to take into account all the data that a human would to see and react. Currently, I don't think the AI on SE4 is even close to finished. Heck, the personality files aren't even finished... They said more things in SE3.

MOO had a better diplomacy model? What? 'You must be my friend, or I'll declare war!' 'Declare war on Joe or I'll declare war on you!' 'You have to many points, I declare war on you!'... I think those are all the modes in MOO2 I saw. That, and, 'I won't speak to you, we're at war!' so you couldn't even offer to surrender to them, let alone ask them to surrender. Sheesh.

C'mon, MOO2 crashed every fifty turns, the 'large' galaxy wouldn't even be half the size of a 'small quadrant' in SE4... I'd happily play SE3 over MOO2, let alone SE4, where I can tweak to my heart's desire.

Better model? Gaining dust? What kind of gamers are you? 5000 point racial advantages? Geez, no wonder the AI can't keep up with you war-mongers. Think in-character... If you're ready to nuke them before they've even met you, you can hardly blame them for losing. Sure they can't explore to well yet, an' they often get tied up in meaningless little battles. But think of all the things they -can- do!

AI is a long, labourious project, which often requires hours and hours of tweaking to find out why Emperor Joe decided to go left instead of right. Even the computer player's Tactical combat is better than in MOO or even SE3. With more weapons, even!

The one thing I could suggest, though, it'd be nice to get some direct feedback on the updates... Like an email list for registered Users?

Anyhow. I'll stop picking on y'all and go back to fighting my way across the universe to dislodge my spouse from her stronghold behind the great rift...

- Crissa

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Crissa Kentavr
Lost Girls

[Talenn]

Kentavr:

Well, for a game this complex I'm quite sure the AI will need a boost to beat or compete with competent human players. The ability to produce an AI which can make long term plans but take into account reactions to actions taken by others is more or less beyond the ability of programmers and current machines. Oh sure, given a LONG time, I'm sure someone could up with something close, but realistically, that aint gonna happen for SE4. So in the absence of an 'uber-AI', I think it will have to have a 'bonus' of some sort (even if just informational to help in it's decision making).

Concerning diplomacy in MOO: Well, I agree that it was pretty weak in MOO2. My favorite for atmosphere and general play was the original MOO. I think the flavour of the music and facial expressions of the enemy leaders was priceless! It added so much to the game. Sure, there werent a million options, but the options that WERE there meant something. How many of all of the options in SE4 have you actually seen accomplish anything? I've tried here and there to 'ask for help' or 'stop hostilities vs a friend' etc in SE4 and usually receive a generic blow-off or else they agree, but then dont follow through. Having tons of options that dont do much doesnt count for too much in my book. And the fact that all the AIs currently 'act' the same makes them feel bland and stale after a while. At least the races in MOO (not as much in MOO2 though) all felt unique and had to be dealt with in different ways.

And FWIW, MOO/MOO2 were remarkably stable for me and the folks I played with (including by modem in MOO2).

Would I rather play SE3 than MOO2? Yes, I sure would. SE3 was a fantastic leap ahead and the ability to customize the enemy races and have them react more or less 'in character' was one its greatest strengths IMO.

And for me, I play with 5000 racial points, but only use 1k or 2k of the points. This gives the AI a decided advantage in that department and I think its sorely needed.

Hmmm, no IMO, nuking the AI before I even meet it is the LEAST of my problems in this game. In fact, whenever I encounter an opposing race I'm usually BEGGING for them to be hostile right off the bat. Its far more challenging than when they come groveling for treaties every other turn. Sure, I can (and do) turn them down, but IMO, they should have some fight in them on their own, especially the ones like 'violent berserkers' etc.

Yes, the combat AI in the SE series is pretty decent as long as there are no complex situations. MOO2 got around this by having a butt-simple combat system in which only the bigger and better direct fire weapons were worth much. This made their combat AI work OK. There wasnt much else to do except move forward and mass firepower, something it did a fair job of. SE's combat is far more diverse and I'm far more willing to cut it some slack in that department. Again, there are just too many permutations for a standard AI programmer to have it perform optimally. No problems there IMO, just make sure it has enough ships in the right places and its off to a good start.

Anyways, there is nothing shockingly new here. Its a simple restatement of the way people are currently perceiving the game. I am still enjoying it immensely due the ability to mod and tweak. If I couldnt or didnt have the time, I probably would have ceased playing as well. The stock AI in the stock game just doesnt hold the interest for too terribly long.

I dont mean for this post to be negative or 'bashing' the game. Overall, I think its great. With some more work, I'm sure it will be even better. Luckily, MM and SG seem commited to continuing that work.

Finally, dont be afraid to pick on us. I think most of us are big boys and girls and can handle ourselves just fine. Its all a matter of opinions in here and everyone is entitled to their own.

Talenn

[Jochen Schmidt]

Hi all,

after reading with surprise how many folks here, think in the same way like me, i haver say something to this discussion:

I never did an Ai coding - this must be very hard to do - yes - but, it can done!!

Well, my baseline is MoO2 - the diplomacy, the characters of the enemies/allies, the strategic AI - really well done!! O.k., now in SE4, there is much more implementet, things a always wanted to have - but, the essential thing, the AI is to weak, much to weak. Btw, i like to play against the computer, cause in a such long-time game like SE4, i don´t know how it should work to play by E-mail. It is even now excuse, to say: "If you don´t like the Ai, play against a human". Also doing my own AI could be a funny thing, but as i said, i don´t know how, and when i should do this - this is the job of the programmers.

Don´t get me wrong (again), i know, that the AI is never as good as a human, but if the Ai here would have only a little more "intelligence", the game would still be my favourite. THIS, i mean the tweaking of the AI, should be the first job to do at the moment. Give it the possibility to use all the compenents, wich are implented in the game, give it the right behavior in strategy... and, this game would rock!!!!

(One of the most famous things for me, was the decision of BTS, to code an (nearly perfect) AI for their Combat Mission game - this is the best AI i´ve ever seen - so, their success as an "independent label" was born by doing it so - not 3D-Graphics, not warsimulation - the AI is the secret of their success.)

I hope MM will work on this. I won´t - ´cause i´m "only" a customer with all good wishes for them and their/my game.

Greetings to all

Jochen

[Courageous]

What will often help an A.I. to defeat human
players (in just about any game) is giving
it the ability to process information in such
a way that gives it an advantage, but at the
same time that information processing would
be far too tedious for a human to engage in.
AI's in such situations excel.

This is one of the reasons Imperialism II was
such a bastard to beat. I'm in favor of
allowing a little "AI cheating," as long as
the cheating is mostly related to the AI
having information that a human player might
not have. There's good rationale for this:
human players have intuition and can make
good guesses. Computers can't.

Not yet, anyway.

C//