What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!

[Mortifer]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
I think the major problem with diplo AI is that I don't know anything about AI coding and JK is bored by it (he made the AI so he should know). This doesn't mean that there will never be any diplomacy, but it means that if it will be made it will be so out of a sudden whim.

An outstanding AI might also see the day of light if one of you guys suddenly comes up with a simple yet brilliant system for a diplomatic AI that is unabusable.

Meanwhile you will have to wait and hope.

I have some ideas, I will post about it.
Gotta run, no time now.
I am happy that you lads @ Illwinter are paying enough attention, and listening to our ideas and suggestions!
I will be back tomorrow, I will post my detailed ideas than.

[DominionsFan]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
I think the major problem with diplo AI is that I don't know anything about AI coding and JK is bored by it (he made the AI so he should know).

bored? LOL?

[Taqwus]

*shrug*

I normally don't play multi since I'm not inclined to take games that seriously, and thus veer strongly towards the silly side rather than being a serious, competitive player. I'm more of a "ooh, let's try this and see what happens" chap rather than one who'll carefully plan ahead, figuring out a focused strategy e.g. what to research, when to start summoning seasonal spirits, et al.

But for those that do play MP, beefing up the in-game messaging capabilities wouldn't be a bad idea. *shrug* And yes, it could be done out of the game, but not as conveniently. Eh.

[Aristoteles]

Ok here is my idea:

We need a relationship bar. That way we will be able to see the relations with the other nations. Also there should be a a huge table with all relations. IE. between AI A and AI F, or between AI B and AI G, etc.

Basic options should be:

Send gold
Send magic gems
Transfer / Give unit(s)
Transfer / Give province(s)

Basic hostile options

Demand gold
Demand magic gems
Demand provinces

Diplomatic options

Right of Passage / Passage Agreement
Trade Embargo
Non Agression Pact
Alliance (against)
Total Alliance

All actions will raise / lower the relationship between the nations. Basic Options will raise the relationship, any hostile actions & basic hostile options will lower it.

Hostile actions what will lower the relationship:

-Sending spies

-Attacking a nation whose relations with the 'target' is good. [No alliance or any diplo relations between them, just good relationship!]IE. You want good relations with AI A. The relations between AI A and AI B is very good. You are attacking AI B.
Your relations with AI A will be decreased, greatly.

-Casting any hostile spells. This should work like the above one, IE. You want good relations with AI A. The relations between AI A and AI B is very good. You are casting some hostile spells against AI B.
Your relations with AI A will be decreased.

-Attacking a nation should lower the relations to -100. Also lets say that you attacked AI A.
There was an alliance between AI A, AI B and AI C.
Your relations should be -100 with AI A, AI B and AI C after the attack.

The relationship bar is quite simple, the max is 100, the min is -100. 100 is the best, -100 is the worst.

Now about the abuse. If you are sending lot of gold/giving away units etc, will increase your relations for sure. If you call that abusing, than we wont have a good diplo AI in any games EVER
Just think what happened in history. The various empires always used this way to improve their relations with other Kingdoms/Empires. This is supposed to work like this.

[ October 17, 2003, 13:21: Message edited by: Aristoteles ]

[Kristoffer O]

I wasn't entirely serious, but if you want to try to think up a diplomatic AI I don't mind.

As I said we need a simple yet brilliant system. You give suggestions on options and diplomatic actions that lower or increases the relations. These can be added later, when there is a system that works.

Instead try to figure out how relationships are measured, how they change, when the AI makes war, how to react to stronger/weaker players, how to measure other players stance against each other (is it better to gang up on one player?), does the AI have a long memory (and what does it remember) or does it only have a current relationship measure (very abusable) etc.


We will never implement giving troops away.

[Gandalf Parker]

Theres alot of programming in that previous suggestion. Before we see anything close to that maybe we could suggest some simpler fixes we might actualy see soon. The best would be simple additions to re-action formulas which might already be in the game. Stuff with no menu.

Im with others that the diplomacy which existed in MP games was plenty. In fact, almost too much. We had to develop ways of doing games to make diplomacy harder to use. And yes I was A-#1 hacker who used the Dom 1 diplomatic options ALOT!

Anyway, one of the places where the solo game falls far short of the MP game is in the area of diplomacy. Maybe the "formula experts" (we had some of those in the newsgroup discussions) could come up with ways to add a simple variable or two to the logic.

Dom 1 seemed to have some logic to its decisions of whether or not to attack you. There is a formula in there somewhere and aparently a variable which kept track of whether or not you were an enemy. Do gifts give pluses the way attacking them gives minuses? Can they?

[Mortifer]

Hey, that is a nice diplo system, Aristoteles!

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
I wasn't entirely serious, but if you want to try to think up a diplomatic AI I don't mind.

As I said we need a simple yet brilliant system. You give suggestions on options and diplomatic actions that lower or increases the relations. These can be added later, when there is a system that works.

Instead try to figure out how relationships are measured, how they change, when the AI makes war, how to react to stronger/weaker players, how to measure other players stance against each other (is it better to gang up on one player?), does the AI have a long memory (and what does it remember) or does it only have a current relationship measure (very abusable) etc.


We will never implement giving troops away.

IMHO, it should work like this:
All nations should start with a "natural relation system."
This means that some nations will dislike eachother from start, some of them won't.

Example: Pangea will dislike Ermor from the start, the relationship between them should start with -20. [0 is normal]
It is up to the devs, to set up these starting relations.

I think Aristoteles already mentioned that how these relations should change, positive actions will raise, negative actions will lower the relations between the nations.
The AI must have a long memory. This will prevent the abusing.
Example: You attacked the AI, but you've made a peace later on. The AI basically won't trust you anymore. You will have to send lot more things/per turn to keep up the good relations with him, than normally from that point. -> You cannot abuse the 'alliance/war' than.

Same goes for provinces.
Example: You are giving away a province to the AI. Your relations will improve. There must be some options like you cannot attack that province for at least 10 turns. Meanwhile you are making an alliance against someone with the AI. If you broke this alliance later on, the relationship should be -80. If you broke the alliance by conquering the province, what you gave to the AI, the relationship should be -100.
Also if you broke an alliance like that, it should have a global effect. -10 relationship with all nations, and -30 with your allies.

In fact all of your actions should have global effects. Like attacking an AI, whos part of an alliance will force you to war with the whole alliance.
If you are attacking an AI nation, whos got good relations with other AIs, your relations with all of them should decrease by a given amount of relation points.
That way you will be forced to make smart moves, also you cannot abuse the AI.

Restrictions / global effects will prevent the diplo AI abusing.

[ October 17, 2003, 15:05: Message edited by: Mortifer ]