Damage Types: Pierce, Slash, and Crush

[atul]

Originally posted by DominionsFAN:
Hell no! If you hit a decent platemail with a hammer -or with a sword-, you will take almost no damage.

If I remember correctly, at least some warhammers had been designed two-sided: a blunt hammerhead with a spike on the other side (gyah my english isn't up to this), a little like this:
___
|....\_^___ (poor ASCII to the
|...._____> rescue!)
|___/.||

Anyway, the blunt side for soft targets and crushing the bones below armour. And the spike side to act as a can opener for heavy armour.

So, were the distinction Slashing/Crushing/Piercing damage applied, this particular weapon should act as crushing or piercing, dependent on which kind of armour is attacked (we assume that the soldier wielding a hammer can make an intelligent decision).

Quite makes aforementioned distinction obsolete.

And anyone who has seen the movie Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon must admit that a spear can very well be used as a slashing weapon.

While different damage types as seen in many RPGs fit nicely to those games, I must also say that I don't think that it would be worth all the trouble. Yes, Doms has many RPGish elements, but personally I think that the ability to make your enemies' capitals suffer the fate of Carthago (destroy fort, plunder, just add salt) is a lot more essential than different damage types of common soldiers.

In the end, it all comes to one's own opinions, of course.

Besides, if talked about immersion and such, I think there are many other ways to add that than just common damage types (time to duck and cover ). For example (this being just a hearsay), the thing about ancient Roman javelin was the special way its tip was manufactured. The foremost part was hard iron and just behind it the iron was relatively soft. So, when such a javelin was thrown and blocked by a shield, the foremost part would penetrate it, and latter would bend by the weight of the shaft. End result: the heavy javelin is stuck in the shield which is left quite unusable by the addition of extra weight. Implement that!

(Of course, I'm not imagining such implementation would be usable, if it wasn't clear from the context. The point being, you actually have to stop at some level when making a game, at least if you want to get it ready some day. And I confess, still have traumas from playing RoleMaster)

[licker]

Originally posted by Taqwus:

More complexity does not necessarily equal better, but it guarantees a heck of a lot more work.

Yep, I think this is the major disadvantage of this system. It requires not only more work from the devs, but more work from the players. While there are certainly some players that want this added tedium, there are (apparently) also several that think its merely complexity for the sake of complexity.

Beyond the difficulty to *accuratly* model a system like this (which isn't all that big of a deal really from a game mechanic point of view), the problem lies in what is the benefit to game play. For some there is a benefit, for some there isn't, and for some the system would actually be a detriment. At this point I think the pro side would be better off asking or hoping that such a system can somehow be added as a mod, and the devs can let the community with its near infinate time (though not wisdom ) work out the details on their own, if a mod appears which gains popular acclaim, then maybe it can be added in a patch, or saved for Dom3 (should such a project be undertaken).

I remain unconvinced that such a system adds anything meaningful to the game play of Dom and I hope that the pro side of this discussion can find a new line of reasoning to continue with, the more is better arguement is past its time.

[Saber Cherry]

Regardless of whether Illwinter puts damage types into the game...

If the game is made to support different damage types, and armors/units are allowed to have protection bonuses versus different damage types, the game would be completely unchanged, and I would say... with minimal effort expended.

Then, some silly person like me could come out with a mod that does the tedious labor of associating types with weapons, and bonuses with units and armors. And people who think it is fun could use it.

But for this to happen, support must be built into the game code.

-Cherry

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by atul:

Anyway, the blunt side for soft targets and crushing the bones below armour. And the spike side to act as a can opener for heavy armour.

So, were the distinction Slashing/Crushing/Piercing damage applied, this particular weapon should act as crushing or piercing, dependent on which kind of armour is attacked (we assume that the soldier wielding a hammer can make an intelligent decision).

Quite makes aforementioned distinction obsolete.

No... it would be a dual-typed Crush/Pierce weapon, automatically using the best type for a given armor.

[HJ]

There have been a lot of generalizations in this thread lately. Ok.

It's hard for me to understand people complaining about how you cannot model this system realistically, and how this would not add enough variety, and yet they swear by the system that depends on *random dice*.

"Hey John, before you hit me with that sword, let's throw a dice and see whether you'll cut my arm or my ear off". Right. Keep on complaining how this system would be unrealistic and not model things properly.

Furthermore, random dice effectively makes all your units very similar in performance. If you like systems like AoW2, where a halfling slinger can kill a dragon without a problem because of the huge random factor in combat resolution, then we fundametally disagree on what we want to see in games. I want to see difference and gradation between units, you want to see everybody performing pretty much the same. The expensive units are just a waste of resources, since this is not backed up by their elevated performance, and you're better off just massing units instead of doing some decision making in the process.

And yes, let the comp do all the work. All I want to do is click end turn, and the comp can do everything else. This is a game after all, so why bother?

An if you consider tactical and strategical decisions to be classified as "micromanagement", then what do you call browsing through menus and changing orders every turn? I shudder to think what would you say if there were rumours about implementation of tactical control over the battles.

As I said, since the "pro people" should think this or that, I guess I simply don't understand some things.

[ October 14, 2003, 16:56: Message edited by: HJ ]

[Nerfix]

This system could/would/will work if it is balanced and well thougth out, but i am fine with the current system, and i see no real need why to add this. Thus, this would require piles of extra work for IW. Of course, if this gets added, and it is balanced(Arco doesn't get totaly pooped when enemy sends pierce-resisting troops/critters) and well thougth out, i would be more than happy.

[Zerger]

Ok here it goes, what Illwinter will have to do :

1. Release the mod tools
2. Wait for player input, and tweak the AI if it will require it.
3. Add this system.

I do not really like Saber's Posts, they are usually pointless and idiotic, but this idea is very good, I must agree.

[ October 14, 2003, 17:18: Message edited by: Zerger ]