Poll: How much will the new bless effects affect your pretender design?

[apoger]

What you aren't taking into account is the very potent bonuses that the flags get for attacking in mass. By your math flags in Dom I would have just as much trouble. However any testing at all will show that the flags will blow right though the wardens.

The theory is all well and good, however real game testing often shows the flaws in theory. As soon as the demo comes out I will do a tremendous amount of testing. For now I can only tell you what happens in Dom I. In Dom I flags crush wardens. From what I see of the Dom II system, it doesn't look like anything has changed that, however once I do testing I'll be delighted to report the results and form my opinions from facts.

[st.patrik]

Originally posted by apoger:
What you aren't taking into account is the very potent bonuses that the flags get for attacking in mass. By your math flags in Dom I would have just as much trouble. However any testing at all will show that the flags will blow right though the wardens.

The theory is all well and good, however real game testing often shows the flaws in theory. As soon as the demo comes out I will do a tremendous amount of testing. For now I can only tell you what happens in Dom I. In Dom I flags crush wardens. From what I see of the Dom II system, it doesn't look like anything has changed that, however once I do testing I'll be delighted to report the results and form my opinions from facts.

The only bonus that I am aware of is that each attack made against a single target lowers that target's defense score by 1. This is indeed a potent effect when you are facing 10 attacks to each 1 of your own, but the wardens in the scenario I sketched out are not relying primarily on defense, but on protection. The only thing I know that affects protection is fatigue, but if the battle only takes 4 rounds (and only 15 flags left after the first 2), this ought not to change things much. Suppose flags hit 10/10 instead of 7/10 times (due to lowering defense) - still only 2 of those are likely to pierce the armour of the warden, and them do a few points of damage each - very unlikely 13 points combined (which is how many HP the wardens have).

But it is not the same in this scenario as in Dom I, due to the factor of regeneration. In Dom I during the second round of combat the wardens would be low on hitpoints, and by the third round several, perhaps many, would have fallen. The factor of regeneration changes all this, because it allows the regenerating unit to recoup lost hitpoints during the battle. Thus the wardens do not die (as they would in Dom I) to an accumulation of low damage attacks - rather they regenerate the damage and this is what makes the key difference.

I also will test out this theory when the game comes out - but I bet you a large pizza with anchovies that I'm right

[ October 27, 2003, 04:07: Message edited by: st.patrik ]

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by apoger:
What you aren't taking into account is the very potent bonuses that the flags get for attacking in mass. By your math flags in Dom I would have just as much trouble. However any testing at all will show that the flags will blow right though the wardens.

The theory is all well and good, however real game testing often shows the flaws in theory. As soon as the demo comes out I will do a tremendous amount of testing. For now I can only tell you what happens in Dom I. In Dom I flags crush wardens. From what I see of the Dom II system, it doesn't look like anything has changed that, however once I do testing I'll be delighted to report the results and form my opinions from facts.

Well, obviously some testing would be nice. But when you compare to the Dom I situation, I think you are ignoring the importance of regeneration and extra protection that the wardens are getting. How often (in the Dom I tests) do the wardens die from one hit, vs. dying from multiple hits? It would be much rarer to die from multiple hits if you have extra protection and regeneration - the one lucky fistful of sixes is about the only way.

AFAIK, the multiple attacker bonus only affects defense, which isn't that much of an issue in this example anyway. The flags would be better off with strength, I think. Fatigue might also be an issue for the wardens, but I would expect a warden vs. flag match to be decided before fatigue could have much effect (someone will be dead or routed by turn 5).


In any case, the example has a serious flaw: it assumes that 3.5 flags actually get to attack each warden. Wardens are size 2 or 3 (I forget), so 3 or 2 fill one space. Flags are size 2, so 3 fill one space. At most 1.5 flags per warden will actually be attacking at a time - the rest will be stuck in the back.

Small squads will reduce this effect somewhat in later rounds as the flags run around the sides, but by later rounds there won't be as many flags anyway.


Some more points that aren't being considered: although Marignon has level 4 priests, Man does not. They may have trouble blessing substantial Groups of wardens (assuming that they can field them in the first place). On the other hand, wardens have good protection and resist missiles pretty well (especially with regen and berserking). Flags have lousy protection and can get mauled by slingers, let alone bows. Hmm, can Man field bows?

In fact, firing longbows into melee where your nature-9 blessed wardens are fighting would be really effective - if you do hit a warden by accident, you will probably (a) not kill him, and (b) drive him berserk. And (c) he will regenerate. And that's not even counting the effect on your enemies...

It may be difficult to test bless situations in Dom II - unless the battle sim has been significantly improved, you probably won't be able to edit god magic for each side before running the sim. So you'll get the generic bless.

[st.patrik]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
In any case, the example has a serious flaw: it assumes that 3.5 flags actually get to attack each warden. Wardens are size 2 or 3 (I forget), so 3 or 2 fill one space. Flags are size 2, so 3 fill one space. At most 1.5 flags per warden will actually be attacking at a time - the rest will be stuck in the back.

I was about to disagree and then I realised that I was the one who was getting confused - You're absolutely right.

BTW you're probably right that flags would do better with blood, for the strength boost. The only thing that made me not want to use that was not knowing what the 'death curse' you get at lvl 9 is. Even in that case regeneration would make probably a big difference.

BTW2 apparently there is no battle sim in Dom II - much to my dismay I might add.

*edit - it was your stats, by the way, from the usenet post, that I was basing my calculations upon. A most helpful piece of research - thank you.

[ October 27, 2003, 04:23: Message edited by: st.patrik ]

[apoger]

>BTW2 apparently there is no battle sim in Dom II - much to my dismay I might add.


It won't take long for some player to produce a reasonable testbed.

I think you guys are dramatically overestimating the value of regeneration. It works off the base hits of the unit. It's very impressive on a Wrym. Not very impressive on a human sized troop.

10 wardens backed by nature-9 will get whipped by 35 flags backed by fire-4 blood-6 [with a small savings in nation points]. And yes, I'd bet a pizza on that.

[ October 27, 2003, 04:36: Message edited by: apoger ]

[Wick]

">As in level 9 magic is just too expensive?

It generally is."

Yes... but the betas who don't seem to think so. I wonder if we still have only 500 points to play with? Even if we do, I suspect my usual growth +3 is going to become death +3, which will probably go into pretender magic which will get bless up about Dom1 levels. I'll probably also be taking order which means leaving my luck neutral is viable. I'm hopeful there may be enough points to make sacred troops work. We'll see.

[PvK]

I'd say it hinges on the chance the Flags will manage to overcome the Wardens' defense and armor, and also on how they line up in the field. If flail attacks rarely affect a Warden, and/or if they line up so the combat is fought more or less 1:1 in line, the Flags will probably die. If flails tend to get through and hurt Wardens, and/or if the fighters are spread out and mixed up so that they fight 3:1 or 4:1, the Flags will probably win.

Does someone (or some FAQ) know the formulae behind the combat system in detail?

In Dom II, do magic levels still directly add to the mage's combat abilities, as in Dom I? (e.g., does a level 9 fire mage still get Attack +9 himself automatically, in addition to bless effects?)

PvK