Poll: How much will the new bless effects affect your pretender design?

PvK · #1 October 31st, 2003, 01:41 AM

How many gems does it take to empower a pretender the Last few scales to reach level nine, during play?

Does using the various power-boosting magic items in the game contribute to the bless effect? Because those make it relatively easy to gain a raw +1 to +3 power in various fields.

PvK

licker · #2 October 31st, 2003, 01:43 AM

I believe the bless effects are hard wired to your starting spell picks. Otherwise it would be too easy to cheese I think

johan osterman · #3 October 31st, 2003, 03:07 AM

Yes, bless effects are solely based on starting values. You cannot change them, by death empowerment or items.

Psitticine · #4 October 31st, 2003, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
The main problem, it seems to me, is the increasingly higher cost of higher magic levels - it's O(n^2), which is really painful.

The actual cost to move up is only (current power * 8). To get a power of 10, assuming you start with 1, will cost 441 points. That's a lot, but it depends on your play style whether it is worth it or not. It also wouldn't normally cost that much, since one would be unlikely to start with a god whose basic power is only 1 in the path the player wants to maximize.

I don't like negative scales, usually take the 60-point Fortress, take a lot of magical power, and still manage to tweak the scales into a mildly benifical state. I agree completely that larger maps will tilt that balance so that the scales have more importance, but that would just make me aim for 6 or 7 in my primary path instead of 9 or 10.

Chris Byler · #5 October 31st, 2003, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Psitticine:

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Byler:
The main problem, it seems to me, is the increasingly higher cost of higher magic levels - it's O(n^2), which is really painful.

The actual cost to move up is only (current power * 8).

Actually it's more complex than that - it's (power you are moving to - base power in that path for that form) * 8.

I wasn't quite clear in my earlier post - it's the cumulative cost to achieve a higher magic level that is O(n^2). For example, if you start with power 2 in a given path:

level 2 costs 0
level 3 costs 8, total 8
level 4 costs 16, total 24
level 5 costs 24, total 48
level 6 costs 32, total 80
level 7 costs 40, total 120
level 8 costs 48, total 168
level 9 costs 56, total 224
level 10 costs 64, total 288

You see how level 9 costs twice as much as level 7?

And that's if you start at level 2. Many things don't start with any paths above level 1 (great mother, phoenix, frost father, arch druid), and of course some don't start with any above level 0 (archmages, wyrm, manticore). Few god forms start with a path at level 3. Liches, maybe moloch and PoD, maybe the immobiles.

Quote:

To get a power of 10, assuming you start with 1, will cost 441 points.

I don't see how you arrive at that figure - it isn't even a multiple of 8. I make it 360. Neglecting your god form's base cost, of course - many cost over 100 (and get only modest magical skill).

I'd like to see a cheap form with base level 3 in a given path (even if it was physically weak). That would at least make it practical to get a high level of that one path. But I can't think of any forms that meet that condition, other than the immobile ones. (Liches have level 3, IIRC, but have a base cost over 100.)

Quote:

That's a lot, but it depends on your play style whether it is worth it or not. It also wouldn't normally cost that much, since one would be unlikely to start with a god whose basic power is only 1 in the path the player wants to maximize.

I don't like negative scales, usually take the 60-point Fortress, take a lot of magical power, and still manage to tweak the scales into a mildly benifical state. I agree completely that larger maps will tilt that balance so that the scales have more importance, but that would just make me aim for 6 or 7 in my primary path instead of 9 or 10.

Oh, I don't dispute that 6 or 7 in one path is achievable (and still have either a form with some physical might, or a decent number of net positive scales). I wouldn't expect to see much in other paths, though.

I just think the high-level bless effects are cool, but the cost of reaching level 9 is prohibitive unless your form starts with 4+. No god form that I know of starts with more than 3. Thus the problem.

As an example, suppose we wanted to design a god whose bless effect would duplicate the Dom I bless effect. This requires Fire 6, Blood 6. I don't know of any form that starts with skill in fire and blood, so we will have to build one of them up from zero. Let's take the Fountain of Blood - it costs 0 and has a new path cost of 40, I don't think we can do better than that. It starts with Blood 3 (one of the few forms that starts with 3 power in a path), so it will only cost us 48 points to raise that to 6. Fire 6 will cost us 200 points, so we've just spent half our points.

That's not too bad - except that it's for an immobile pretender. Anything else would have been more expensive - a Moloch, for instance, has a base cost of 75, new path cost of 50 and starts with only Fire 2, so overall it would have cost us an extra 117 points (a total of 365).

Maybe it's just my expectations - I thought the intent of the new bless system was to make blessings more varied and more useful, not just more varied (and frequently less useful, unless you invest a lot in god magic). Furthermore I don't like the idea that a god with a 100 point base cost needs to have another 50 or 60 points spent on his magic skills so he will be as powerful as a mortal mage. Most of the titan/demigod forms cost 100+ for 2 or 2/1 (and their physical stats aren't that impressive, although they can generally manage to stay alive on the battlefield). And archmages have an even harder time reaching higher magic levels, because they start with 0 in everything (or everything but one).

I just don't want to see a situation where only Abysia, Caelum and Ermor can afford to take strong magic and strong blessings.

Saber Cherry · #6 October 31st, 2003, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
I just don't want to see a situation where only Abysia, Caelum and Ermor can afford to take strong magic and strong blessings.

I agree with everything you said, except that Last line, which is just plain wrong. WRONG!!! I just played a game with Jotunheim, and they can get good blessings too

licker · #7 October 31st, 2003, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Byler:
I just don't want to see a situation where only Abysia, Caelum and Ermor can afford to take strong magic and strong blessings.

I agree with everything you said, except that Last line, which is just plain wrong. WRONG!!! I just played a game with Jotunheim, and they can get good blessings too

And anyway, one could argue that the blessings are another balance between nations, so there is no need to 'make' all nations have equal access to becoming a blessed nation. Though it does seem as though some nations (Marginon?) should get a special pretender that is more geared toward heavy blessings.