So far what nations look strong... and weak?

Chris Byler · #1 November 20th, 2003, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by johan osterman:

quote:
Originally posted by ywl:
I used an rainbow mage pretender with level 2 in everything, excpet 4 in astral. Even she can't cast it. Do you have to be a Celestial Master to cast the spell?

My guess is that you are playing the standard theme. Demons of Heavenly rivers is not available to the standard theme. Casting it only requires astral and water 1.

It's kind of annoying that the "National Spells" section of the spell manual only includes national battlefield spells, and not national ritual spells (Desert Tombs, Ashen Empire, Soul Gates, and apparently several different themes of T'ien Ch'i - maybe Carrion Woods too?).

Anyway, I was able to cast Demon of Heavenly Rivers with my pretender (Jade Emperor - water 4 astral 6, although with what I know now I'd probably go for a rainbow mage next time; T'ien Ch'i needs access to a variety of booster items) in Spring and Autumn.

The Spring and Autumn Celestial Master is amazing - 7 magic levels, level 4 priest and flying for 250 - 2/3 the cost of an archtheurg. The only real weakness is the 1 astral making him a magic duel target against the astral big boys (Pythium, Arco, R'lyeh). And the low path requirements for the celestial summons go great with the CM's broad based magic. (I recommend a pretender that can forge Staff of Elemental Mastery and/or Rings of Sorcery and Wizardry - both CMs and Masters of the Five Elements gain a lot from multi-boosters.)

Oh, and the Gate of Spring and Autumn produces 6 gems a turn. Why should Pythium have all the fun?

Spring and Autumn doesn't have any cheap communion slaves though.

One more oddity with Spring and Autumn: their province defense is still led by Eunuchs, even though they aren't a normally recruitable commander. (I don't know if this sort of thing happens with other special themes too.)

#2 November 20th, 2003, 10:03 AM

The Celestial Master is Priest level 3 and they Fly 3. They are their own rainbow mages, basically

Great search machines; by far one of the best uses for them.

I don't particularly like the fact that their nobles can only command 25 though; frustrating when you are packing around a ton of horses. Also those horses are actually one archer unit that works... well. And the Glaviers are very nice to hold the line.

Their regular armies get worked pretty hard by heavy cav and large numbers of heavy infantry. As the Horsies still shoot badly even with Aim cast on them multiple times. They work really well with low end enchantment spells that Celestial masters and the heroes have access to. Like Protection, Aim, etc. If only they had xbows ...

Though I guess that is what Demon's of heavenly fire are for, just need more fire gems and to summon them in droves!

Required Turmoil 1 is not nice, along with Magic 1.

Edit: Barbarian Kings has Turmoil 2 Requirement. Though they start out with "Spirit Mastery" which calls 15 Dispossesed Spirits for 4 Death Gems. If you can get an early stockpile of them (via Searching) you can have a quick abusive army with their Heavy Horsemen and Glavie Users.

[ November 20, 2003, 08:12: Message edited by: Zen ]

#3 November 20th, 2003, 10:31 AM

I can only say this about R'lyeh ... ug.

They are fairly one dimensional. But ... ug. They are definitely upper end.

One more time for the children ... ug.

ywl · #4 November 20th, 2003, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by johan osterman:

quote:
Originally posted by ywl:
I used an rainbow mage pretender with level 2 in everything, excpet 4 in astral. Even she can't cast it. Do you have to be a Celestial Master to cast the spell?

My guess is that you are playing the standard theme. Demons of Heavenly rivers is not available to the standard theme. Casting it only requires astral and water 1.

Yes. Much to my embarassment, I found it out myself Last night too. Spring & Autumn and the default themes feel like two very different nations to me.

Kristoffer O · #5 November 20th, 2003, 11:18 PM

The Nobles leadership of 25 is supposed to represent the fact that the armies of the Spring & Autumn period (couldn't resist using the name) 722-481 BC were rather small and the fighting mostly done by chariot-borne noblemen. Honour and prestige rather than territory was the goal of the battles (according to D.A. Graff).

The default theme of the nation is the classical empire thing and the only one that is orderly. Actually I was tempted to make order 3 an obligation for the default. The bureaucracy of imperial China was outstanding.

The ancestor cult of early times was renewed with the barbarian incursions and their beliefs.

Oops, I got carried away.

Nerfix · #6 November 20th, 2003, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
The Nobles leadership of 25 is supposed to represent the fact that the armies of the Spring & Autumn period (couldn't resist using the name) 722-481 BC were rather small and the fighting mostly done by chariot-borne noblemen. Honour and prestige rather than territory was the goal of the battles (according to D.A. Graff).

The default theme of the nation is the classical empire thing and the only one that is orderly. Actually I was tempted to make order 3 an obligation for the default. The bureaucracy of imperial China was outstanding.

The ancestor cult of early times was renewed with the barbarian incursions and their beliefs.

Oops, I got carried away.

The Spring and Autumn theme seems intresting. Where did th name come from?

I suppose that Barbarian Kings get also Masters of the Way in addition with Masters of the Dead?

BTW, looking at the all units file, there seemed to be awfully few BK specific units, The Khan, Master of the Dead and the two Barbarian Cavalries. I would have liked to see more Mongol-type units. A Khan hero would also be nice.
Do the Barbarian Cavalries have a pillage bonus like the normal Barbarians have?

[ November 20, 2003, 21:50: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Chris Byler · #7 November 21st, 2003, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
The Nobles leadership of 25 is supposed to represent the fact that the armies of the Spring & Autumn period (couldn't resist using the name) 722-481 BC were rather small and the fighting mostly done by chariot-borne noblemen. Honour and prestige rather than territory was the goal of the battles (according to D.A. Graff).

The default theme of the nation is the classical empire thing and the only one that is orderly. Actually I was tempted to make order 3 an obligation for the default. The bureaucracy of imperial China was outstanding.

The ancestor cult of early times was renewed with the barbarian incursions and their beliefs.

Oops, I got carried away.

Yeah, the Spring and Autumn nobles are really interesting. Spring and Autumn has no chariot troops, so the nobles tend to trample way into the enemy ranks by themselves (while racking up fatigue from all the trampling).

As Sun Tzu said, if a general is careless, he can be killed.

I also like how the conscription effect is tied to order, and the non-bureaucratic special themes require turmoil - thus they can't get conscription.

And as already posted, I love the Spring and Autumn CM. Two things I left out before:

1. Many of T'ien Ch'i's mages (including the CM and Master of the Five Elements) are amphibious due to their water magic. If you have independents set fairly high, the amphibious merc companies may not be able to take a sea province by themselves, but with some support from a CM they probably could.

2. The CM's astral isn't just for communion - it's good for Power of the Spheres, too. There are a lot of cross-path spells you can cast with two of one path and one or two of another; a CM with Power of the Spheres gets two (or more) of a lot of things. I'd also advise crystal shields, in addition to the aforementioned Staves of Elemental Mastery and Rings of Sorcery/Wizardry. (A lot of mages are powerful with these items, but the CM get more from them than most.)